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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:42 pm 
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Hi folks, at the charity run walled garden i volunteer at i'm one of the "maintenance" folks. Me and 2 other volunteers spent all of last summer re-painting the 10yr old cold frames. Over the previous years they've just been painted (not by us) with water based paint and have cracked withen a year. So, we took all the glass out, stripped off all the paint and sanded down to bare wood and filled any cracks with exterior wood filler. We then put 1 coat of oil based undercoat on, put all the glass back in with linseed oil putty and glazier points, then did a final layer of undercoat and covered the putty (after it had dried). We then put 2 coats oil based exterior gloss on top, left to dry a week or so, and then put it outside.

However, less than year later, all the frames we've done are in a right state, all the paint is peeling off clean (except on the putty, were its just fine!), the wood filler is coming out of the cracks it was put in ( :wtf: ) and they generally look like they weren't done at all!! As far as we know we've done everything correctly so were wondering if its either the wood (we have no idea what type it is, teek maybe as it goes silver?), or the brand of paint we've been using (Macpherson trade paints exterior gloss + undercoat, both oil based)?

Any help would be great appreciated, we really DO NOT want to have to re-paint these yearly!!


Attachments:
File comment: the paint, same brand for undercoat as well (both oil based)
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File comment: what we start painting with, totally stripped down
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File comment: corner peeling, you can see the wedge of filler getting pushed out!
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File comment: paint chipping off clean
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File comment: chipping after 2-3 weeks!
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File comment: cold frames before painted
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DSCN2063.JPG [ 1.3 MiB | Viewed 804 times ]
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:25 pm 
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Hi. Looks to me like the problem is the primer, but the undercoat and gloss is pretty bog standard and not specifically an external paint.

You could try the Zinsser system which involves a coat of oil based coverstain, followed by two coats of Allcoat exterior, which is waterbased.

Or, you could try sadolin superdec which is a self priming waterbased system.

Might be worth your while finding out what the wood is, and contacting either Zinsser or Sadolin and asking them to supply you a spec.

If you mention that you're a charity run place , they may even send out a rep.

Good luck!

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:25 pm 
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i see that you put one coat of undercoat on first why didn't you use primer first. I'm not saying that is the reason but it could be. Unless there was moisture trapped in the wood & it's pushed the paint off.


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 6:38 am 
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thanks for responses!

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Hi. Looks to me like the problem is the primer, but the undercoat and gloss is pretty bog standard and not specifically an external paint.


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i see that you put one coat of undercoat on first why didn't you use primer first. I'm not saying that is the reason but it could be.


hmm we didnt actually use primer on any of them, just went straight with the undercoat. To us (so far anyway!) wood is wood and is ok as long as you use undercoat! Non of us are tradesmen, more above average/advanced DIYers.

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Might be worth your while finding out what the wood is


I can try, though the frames were built several managers ago and i'm not entirely sure anyone actually remembers. Also the company that built them went bust shortly after so we cant ask them either :(


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 8:06 am 
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Steve_789 wrote:

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Might be worth your while finding out what the wood is


I can try, though the frames were built several managers ago and i'm not entirely sure anyone actually remembers. Also the company that built them went bust shortly after so we cant ask them either :(


It's not Teak.

It looks something like a fairly nice old pine of some sort, maybe Pitch Pine or BC pine, (and could be quite resinous).

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 9:41 am 
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Strip it all off and give it a coat of aluminium wood primer, fill with two part wood filler, spot prime, and then use an exterior flexible undercoat and gloss, johnstone's do a very good one.



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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 2:19 pm 
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ayjay wrote:
Steve_789 wrote:

Quote:
Might be worth your while finding out what the wood is


I can try, though the frames were built several managers ago and i'm not entirely sure anyone actually remembers. Also the company that built them went bust shortly after so we cant ask them either :(


It's not Teak.

It looks something like a fairly nice old pine of some sort, maybe Pitch Pine or BC pine, (and could be quite resinous).

Reading down and just going to post the same. :thumbright:


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 2:59 pm 
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Nice to see aluminium wood primer getting a recommendation. Very under rated product. :thumbright:

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 7:20 pm 
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dynamod wrote:
Nice to see aluminium wood primer getting a recommendation. Very under rated product. :thumbright:

I can remember when it was standard practice to prime with it on all outdoor hardwoods, (or maybe it was just that the people I worked for always used it).

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 7:41 pm 
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ayjay wrote:
dynamod wrote:
Nice to see aluminium wood primer getting a recommendation. Very under rated product. :thumbright:

I can remember when it was standard practice to prime with it on all outdoor hardwoods, (or maybe it was just that the people I worked for always used it).
No, you're probably right.

Funny thing is, I've been a decorator since the 1980s and I can't recall ever using aluminium primer.

Back then there seemed to be clear distinction between what we painted hard or soft wood with and it seemed that one got stained (mahogany was everyone's kink) and the other in oil based paint.

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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 8:47 am 
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Thanks for the responses guys, much appreciated!

You guys are right about it not being teak, apparently its pitch pine with high oil content, though thats not 100% confirmed. We do have a surveyor coming next month to look at other stuff who 'could' give us a modern alternative, though it seems a shame to change it as there's nothing wrong with the wood at all cept a few cracks where the joints have moved a little over time.

I've never heard of the aluminium primer stuff before, would that work? and if so, would you then use bog standard exterior paint like we have been doing, or would we have to stick to solvent based paint? I'm guessing you would but no harm in asking :) Also, if so, ok to mix and match brands or play it safe and stick to the same brands for all layers? (as an example) if we used *brand name* Aluminium Wood Primer, would we have to stick to *brand name* exterior Undercoat with *brand name* exterior Gloss ?


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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 9:31 am 
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Macpherson is a brand name as it is part of the Crown family but a bit cheaper than the usual Crown Trade products.

I have done the eaves of two houses over 10 years ago with Crown solvent based gloss (and undercoat etc) and there is no problem yet. The paint did not give any guarantees for 6 8 or 10 years yadda yadda etc, it was not internal or external, just gloss, but so what. However, I spend for ever taking off a coat of paint from one of the houses as some b*stards had slapped a coat of paint on top of what was there and it was flaking. The problem you got is the wood is a bit well weathered, the joints you got will not hold filler (2 part filler) very well, so the wood will expand and contract more than the paint can handle.

I am sorry I cannot recommend a paint to you, but at work (old victorian building) the windows and other external only woodwork had been painted with water based no idea what. Too soon after, another firm was contracted and they were using Sandtex trade gloss (and its own undercoat). I watched them work, the paint seemed to have an exceptionally nice flow (brush marks closing immediately etc) despite the guys having more sand on their brushes than paint. There are too many different things now.

PS. I will let others correct me on that, but you may get a better lasting result if you don't fill the joints unless you have ugly openings and instead prime well into the crack, undercoat and paint. Other than that you need to spend a lot of time on preparation sanding and or stripping.


Last edited by OchAye on Sat May 19, 2018 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 9:32 am 
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Aluminium primer would certainly work, it's designed for resinous timber. Do not use bog standard undercoat and gloss, you need a flexible product meant for exterior wood. As I've mentioned earlier, Johnstone's Stormshield flexible undercoat and gloss is great stuff. All the paint manufacturers do an aluminium primer, Leyland trade is the one I use but any other would do. Another thing, if you use the aluminium primer than always make sure you don't put water based undercoat over it as it might bleed through, stick with what I mentioned and you will be ok.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:47 pm 
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so, i passed this up the chain to management, he's now of the opinion that we should strip it and use linseed oil on it, which just seems wrong to me. My understand of oiling is that is preserves the wood, which isnt needed here as the woods fine! Also i get the feeling that just an oil finish will not be durable enough to cope with the constant use and abuse these frames get .. and also i'd have to be doing it every year as these things really do get exposed to ALL weathers!

who knew wood finishing was so complicated! ::b


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