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 Post subject: Re: Which welder?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:23 pm 
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Hi,

I hope I'm not hi-jacking your thread Argyll but I hope every bit of information helps. I've just sorted out the lead connections to my oil filled welder.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171852251693?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Above is the eBay seller I used to purchase the new lugs from and I'm amazed how cheap they are including delivery; I paid an extra £1 for next day delivery and even so much better than others on eBay at up to a tenner for a pair?

One of the original connectors was perfect it having been crimped then soldered (soddered for Americans) but the one which pulled out was merely crimped without being soldered. I used my hacksaw to remove the original connectors and the new lugs were very easy to install; I ensured no loose strands had broken free then nipped the new lugs up tightly; self amalgamating insulation tape was then neatly wrapped around completing the job; this was only a ten minute job costing very little but I won't now be troubled with the welding lead pulling free again. A point worth mentioning is that every time I do a job I always check to see if I can improve upon the original.

Kind regards, Col.

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 Post subject: Re: Which welder?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:40 pm 
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I'll get photos up after next Thursday :thumbright:

I've learned the lesson to button up shirts etc when knocking the hot slag off. A bit burnt my mouth and the other burnt my neck.


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 Post subject: Re: Which welder?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:41 pm 
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That does look galvanised.
Why do you want/need to weld it? Any sort of welding will destroy the galvanised layer, which( if I recall correctly from my schoolboy chemistry) is a "sacrificial protector". I have done it a few times, but the work piece will spit like crazy, and the galvanising is never the same again, in fact I think it actually rusts FASTER around the welded bit, not something you want on the underside of a trailer!.
Drilling holes for bolts is fine, as this will be covered by the "protection" of the galvanised. I would be inclined to bolt it if at all possible, especially if you are just starting at welding. I know when I started a bolted joint was stronger than my welded joints for a good while!
It is also tricky welding metals of differing thicknesses, as the arc will have to be just right, so as to melt the thick piece enough, but not blow holes in the thinner piece. If you are determined to weld it, I would weld your thick piece to some 1/8-5/16" plate of suitable size/shape and bolt that to your trailer.
Of course you will realise that all parts must be clean, so you might have to acquire an angle grinder as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Which welder?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:22 pm 
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I received an email that they're on strike this Thursday then I'm on election duties the week after so I won't be there until 11th :cussing:

I'm chomping at the bit to get my trailer fixed.


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 Post subject: Re: Which welder?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:55 pm 
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Hope you do alright Argyll. I wanted to learn to weld and build a trailer, fortunately the two dovetail quite nicely. I got a simple 140 amp arc welder from Argos ( I think it was) in the late eighties/early 90's for about £70. It would operate from a 13 amp plug(just!) but needed a really thick lead. I did indeed build a trailer, which I towed for many years( and miles!) behind my Bedford CF for lugging re-enactment stuff around the country. Frame was about 1/8" thick which ISTR I used 2.5mm rods at about 40-50 amps.
I don't have the trailer any more as Mrs. Fixit deemed it too big, but I freecycled it and see it locally sometimes still going.
I don't use it much, but have made gate hinges, other bits and pieces and even a mast mounting for a Viking longship!

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 Post subject: Re: Which welder?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:42 am 
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Hi,

Oh dear Argyll your plans are being well and truly scuppered regarding being taught welding. :cb

Nice one on the trailer Timllfixit and I bet it still gives you a buzz each time you see it being used. 2.5mm electrodes at 40/50A? I generally use 6013 electrodes 2.5mm at 100/110A? :thumbleft: (Get me at playtime Timllfixit. :lol: ).

http://www.weldability-sif.com/media/docs/Intro_MMA_Welding.pdf

Page 11 gives rough amperage values. The quickest way to learn though is through practice on lumps of scrap metal; the basics are soon picked up; too low a current the rod sticks too high a current the rod glows; replace trepidation with relaxation and enjoy the learning curve; you'll get there quicker than you think Argyll. :salute:

Kind regards, Col.

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 Post subject: Re: Which welder?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:26 am 
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Hi,

Just a suggestion Argyll. Do you have a bit of scrap mild steel to hand; angle iron or box section? If so why wait for the course; set your welder at 110 amps; insert a 2.5mm 6013 electrode into the holder and clip the earth lead to the metal; all you need now is to cover your skin and eyes and have a go at welding. The extra amps should give an easier strike just to get you used to running a bead; with a bit of practice then you'll be able to judge best current to use. After a bit of frustration with the rod tending to stick at first arc welding isn't really difficult; I do wish you lived nearby then I could have you running a bead in no time at all. :thumbleft:

This reminds me of my vintage radio restoration days when I used my cabinet scraper to remove original finish from the cabinets right back to bare timber; a forum member was having problems in getting his cabinet scraper to work correctly; he lived no too distant from us so he paid us a visit bringing along his scraper and the cabinet. He had sharpened his scraper to razor sharp so this wasn't the problem; I set the cabinet on the bench and had a go with my own cabinet scraper peeling a strip of finish off whilst he watched in amazement; all he had been doing wrong was not pressing on the scraper hard enough; after my demonstration he too peeled a strip of finish off using his own scraper and he was over the moon; all it took was a demonstration lasting about 15 seconds and I'm not kidding.

The thread can be seen here;

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?t=45457

Page no.2 posts #23 & #26. Dom has since visited us a number of times; I've met and made friends with lots of forum members over the years. :thumbleft:

I learn something new every day Timllfixit; the 2.5mm 6013 electrodes I use seem happy around 100/110A but I've just been browsing the web and came across these electrodes at a cost which would bring tears to my eyes;

https://www.fosterindustrial.co.uk/oerlikon-fincord-m-2-5mm?utm_source=google_shopping&gclid=Cj0KEQjwioHIBRCes6nP56Ti1IsBEiQAxxb5G2nc6FX6tc0w570RJYbF6OS41je1YgWUnzFOgvbKkCEaAlDq8P8HAQ

These electrodes can be used between 60/100A; I would like to compare these electrodes with the cheap electrodes from Screwfix? For my needs the Screwfix electrodes work fine; Foster also supply cheaper electrodes; I just like to see whats available and be nosy.

Learning something totally new means leaving your personal comfort zone and everything at first feels strange and lots of problems can be envisaged. "fear of the unknown"? It sure happens to me all the time but I like trying new things and if I make a mistake or two whilst learning it's not the end of the world in fact I learn a lot by making just about every mistake possible before doing the right thing; I adopted restoring vintage radios as an hobby and I didn't even know what a DMM was but I went on to have articles published and to be honoured with a top award for a restoration. I'm just a guy who won't quit once I start something; you've absolutely nothing to worry about regarding arc welding Argyll; waste a few electrodes and a bit of scrap mild steel; get frustrated each time the electrode sticks but I can assure you once you've made these mistakes you'll soon be welding; just don't burn yourself or set fire to anything and above all look after your skin and eyes. It's so frustrating for me because I'm positive I could have you welding very quickly indeed. I still get the electrode to stick at times and give myself the odd welding flash but it doesn't bother me at all. All novice arc welders will experience the same learning curve but I'm pleased you've posted here on UHM to encourage others to have a go; I'm looking forward to when you say WOW that wasn't so hard to do after all. :huray:

Kind regards, Col.

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 Post subject: Re: Which welder?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:34 pm 
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Penetration is going to be too low with a much lower current I'd have thought. Depends what you're welding of course. Getting the right penetration is important though.
(Stop sniggering in the back row there! :lol: )
It's covered briefly in the instructions that Col has linked to a couple of posts up.
http://www.weldability-sif.com/media/docs/Intro_MMA_Welding.pdf



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:10 pm 
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Hi,

Thanks Dave54 for adding the link; the welding instructions through the link contain the fundamentals of arc welding in a concise manner. Penetration is important where strength of weld is needed in fact welding from both sides if possible ensures this. I suggested using an higher current as a starting point because striking the arc will then be easier for a novice; too low current and the electrode is sure to stick over and over again putting any novice off welding and another arc welder onto eBay.

One extra point worth mentioning about penetration is that the angle of holding the electrode makes a lot of difference; years ago I used to weld rusty silencers using my arc welder which a novice welder would have great difficulty in achieving but is possible after quite a bit of practice; the electrode is held at a very shallow angle on minimum current which will allow the arc to be struck and of course very thin electrodes are used; a lot of patience and slag chipping is needed for this whilst each bead is built up.

I'm keen to see Argyll get welding then hopefully he can dispel some of the perceived difficulties in arc welding; I often hear how hard arc welding is to learn but in reality it is relatively quite easy to learn; in a home workshop no one is trying to copy nuclear industry types of weld to strict code where the welds are x rayed; as long as the weld is strong with decent penetration it will be good enough for a home workshop;



There is so much information on YouTube about welding all a novice needs to do is to watch a few videos then give welding a go; weld a couple bits of angle iron together then try to separate them with an hammer; poor welds will soon let go.

Kind regards, Col.

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 Post subject: Re: Which welder?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:57 pm 
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Quote:
Nice one on the trailer Timllfixit and I bet it still gives you a buzz each time you see it being used. 2.5mm electrodes at 40/50A? I generally use 6013 electrodes 2.5mm at 100/110A? :thumbleft: (Get me at playtime Timllfixit. :lol: ).


It was a long time ago! Now I think of it that seem more reasonable for 1.6 or thereabouts.
I think I did the 3/16" with the 2.5 may be at about 80A? I cant remember for certain now, and I haven't welded anything for so long I would probably have to re-learn.
Trailer body was 7' x5' on a pair of "Indispension" stub axles with Mini wheels. I got a spare wheel from a scrap yard, and welded up a bracket to mount it on the front safari style!
The final version had a drop flap at the back( fully removable of course) 12mm marine ply floor, 22 G galvanised sides and an axle and Drawbar made from 1/8" thick, 6"x2" box section. The mounting holes for the jockey wheel and hitch were(of course) tubed inside. All frame corners were re enforced with 1/8" sheet triangles, about 4" along each equal side.
I used crossply tyres on it, as they had higher sidewalls and a marginally higher loading capacity than radials( and were cheaper too!)

I found some welding rods the other day in what used to be the airing cupboard. It hasn't actually been an airing cupboard for at least ten years, so I probably haven't done any welding since then.

I see it at the local dump some times Col, but it's a little heartbreaking because the "new " owners lend it out to people in their church group and it's not being looked after in a way that I would have liked.

Addendum to previous, previous post. ISTR I welded the thing for the Viking longship( Early medieval northern European costal trading vessel actually as it was only about 36' long) with the shipyard 3 phase welder. I noticed it gave a much more controllable arc, and gave much better results than my "box".

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 Post subject: Re: Which welder?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:43 am 
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Hi,

At the time Timllfixit I bet you enjoyed making the trailer as much as you then enjoyed using it. The new owners of your trailer simply acquired the trailer without lifting a finger or putting in any work during its construction so it's just a trailer to them hence as long as it works they have no other special interest in it but I know exactly what you mean when you now see the trailer in decline.

Angle and box section at 1/8" thick is ideal for welding with the home workshop welders rated at up to 140A; I used my 140A SIP Weldmate for well over twenty years without trouble and only recently gave the SIP away to a friend because I upgraded to the Pickhill Bantam (Oxford) oil cooled welder I now own. The SIP always did all the welding I ever needed to do but I yearned for an industrial oil cooled welder which I had trained on and used as an apprentice so I'm happy and so is the recipient of the SIP.

You mentioning a Viking Longship reminds me of the Viking ship which used to be suspended from the ceiling in McArthurglen Retail Outlet in York but its no longer there;

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/uv?hl=en& ... oB8IiwEwCg

I agree the industrial 3 phase welders are a joy to use; my Pickhill can be used in either single or three phase mode and being oil cooled it will weld day in day out without cutting out; the duty cycle of a welder dictates how long it will weld before it cuts out and needs to cool down before it will work again so for novices with one of the common home workshop arc welders if your welder suddenly dies on you after you've been using it don't panic; leave the welder to cool down for half an hour then it should be OK. The cheap arc welders will do a good job giving perfect welds but they will not weld continuously for long periods unlike industrial welders; as I say I used my SIP for many years and knowing if I pushed it too hard it would cut out I spaced my welding to suit this; I would run a few beads then turn the welder off whilst I assembled the next item to be welded giving the welder a rest. I've not changed the size of rods I use for years; 2.5mm 6013 rods weld everything I need to weld so each time I do any welding everything is set up ready. The only problem I'm currently experiencing is many times I plug the welder in it trips the mcb. Yesterday a new "C" type mcb arrived which I hope will cure the tripping once its installed; my new 4hp saw bench also trips the "B" type mcb; I don't like tripping electrics so I'll soon sort it out; I also bought a new metal clad 16 way BG consumer unit so this to will be installed in the near future.

Welding I think Timllfixit will be rather like riding a bike and however long ago you last welded once you start welding again you'll feel like it was only yesterday you last did any welding; it's over 50 years ago since I rode a push bike but I'm pretty sure I can still ride one but these days I prefer at least a 750cc engine in its frame. :huray:

What a pity you're having such a long drawn out time in learning to weld Argyll due to your instruction course; I had hoped you would be quickly posting excellent welds shortly after buying your welder; warmer weather is due so this should encourage you to practice with your welding. :scratch:

I hope I don't come across as an expert welder because I'm not and never will be; I've been welding for over 50 years but on a hit and miss basis only welding as required; my welding has been only on mild steel (a bit of cast iron thrown in) from very thin stuff like car exhaust up to my pit days when I would be welding steel plate and RSJ's etc but not one of my welds has ever been tested other than in service and not one has ever failed. Like your welding instruction course Argyll it mirrors very much how I was taught to weld by the National Coal Board; us apprentices were talked through the basics regarding safety which is paramount in a coal mining environment and once the instructor showed how to adjust the welder for matching current to rod size and showing us a quick demonstration how to run a weld the instructor let us at it; no instructor is good enough to give one on one instruction to a group even when its a group of full time apprentices on a six month engineering course. On the forum we can discuss arc welding forever but the learning curve involved in welding is extremely short before a welding bead is run; you can't beat hands on and a bit of practice; every novice to arc welding will soon weld with a little practice so please don't let anyone put you off if they tell you arc welding is difficult; it's only difficult to them because they cannot weld; isn't it strange how when you tell someone you're about to attempt something like welding how negative they become; they don't know how to weld so don't want you to know how to weld either; get stuck in and prove them wrong.

30 years ago Bron and I told our neighbours we intended to replace the entire roofs on our detached bungalow and its two roomed extension; WOW it was a huge joke and our immediate neighbours openly laughed at us; I researched how to replace roofing and 18 months later as funds became available Bron and I did not only successfully replace both roofs we used top quality materials and made a superb job of it; our immediate neighbours then asked if we would replace their roof which by now was also leaking? Why are people so quick to put anyone down or to be so downright negative all the time; we British used to rule the world when it came to innovation; pity all we do these days is to turn out fast food and look miserable. :pukeleft: :pukeleft: :pukeleft:

Bron and I are shortly popping round to Carole's next door; Carole has managed to assemble a new garden bench but is having a bit of trouble adding the middle metal strip with locks the slats together; she stripped a screw head off. Carole at least is having a go at 70 years of age and has bought a bit of kit including cordless drill/driver; well done Carole you put many young ones to shame.

Kind regards, Col.

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 Post subject: Re: Which welder?
PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 7:47 pm 
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Hi guys

Read the whole thread, very interesting stuff because I too want to get into welding, mainly because I own a bit of land and need to maintain some gates and stuff and also because I'm renovating a property and would like to make a staircase frame, I'll try and add a picture if I work out how.

What's with the Jasic welder? I'm looking for a basic stick set up to learn and try and master lol! Does the welder come with all the fitting to plug in and go? Or do I need to buy a few more items?


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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 11:13 pm 
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Hi Col. If I remember rightly that "longship*" was the sister to the one we had.
Both were made for the film Erik the Viking. One for the sailing around scenes( which I heard went to live in a shopping centre so it might have been that one) and the one the re-enactment society had/have that was used in the flying scenes. Unfortunately this meant that most of one side was missing, and a steel frame was fitted inside( that attached to hydraulic rams). We spent a few weeks putting all the planks back once it was "delivered" from the back lot at Pinewood studios and I had to get a tube made up( rolled from 1/4" boiler plate) to socket the mast and weld it into the frame.

* It was only about 36 feet long and less than 9'6" wide, so it would fit onto the back of an articulated lorry.

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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 9:51 pm 
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Hi,

Thanks for your interesting information about the viking long-ships Timllfixit; I'm sure the one which used to be in the McArthur Glenn shopping mall in York must be the one you heard that went into a shopping centre; what a small world. :thumbleft:

If you buy a new arc welder Griff84 you might also need gloves and electrodes (suggest E6013 electrodes at 2.5mm as a start); a new welder will probably come with a welding shield which is a must because arc welding cannot be done without a suitable shield whether hand held or the helmet type. I use a small cold chisel for chipping slag but a chipping hammer might also be included.

Type of arc welder depends on what you can afford; a basic 140A arc welder won't bankrupt you; there are now also inverter type welders which are cheap and very light although I've never used on of these then if you want the best and have had three Weetabix for breakfast are the brilliant oil cooled welders such as my Pickhill Bantam (Oxford) but a good one of these will set you back about £300 and they certainly cannot be classed as portable because they are extremely heavy; many have wheeled trolleys; I made a wheeled trolley for mine because just dragging it around the workshop gave me a good work-out. A cheap arc welder will have a short "duty cycle" which means it will cut out and stop welding after a short session; my Bantam can be used all year without cutting out but you get what you pay for; a basic arc welder though will get you welding and possibly do the welding you want to do unless you start to get serious and tackle bigger welding projects; I used my previous SIP Weldmate 140A for over twenty years and it did all the welding I wanted to do; I always wanted an oil cooled welder and now I can easily afford one I could make one dream come true.

A new 140A arc welder will come ready to use by just connecting the leads and will work from a standard 13A 240V plug; the bigger oil cooled welders need a lot more supply otherwise they trip the mcb breaker. I would suggest a new 140A arc welder and I'm sure you won't be disappointed. Good luck because welding is a very useful skill and easy to learn with a bit of practice.

Kind regards, Col.

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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 10:44 pm 
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Quote:
A cheap arc welder will have a short "duty cycle" which means it will cut out and stop welding after a short session


Do you mean you need to let it cool or it's knackered and need to buy another one?

I see Lidl have two welders on sale this Thursday. One of them being an inverter model you mentioned. What's the advantage over a cheaper conventional model?



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