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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:24 am 
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I'm about to embark on building a spray booth (which will suffice as a work shop later on) and compressor shed (6ft x 4ft)

The booth will be fixed to a 15ft x 9ft concrete slab which I've laid recently. The overall height of both the booth and shed will be 8ft.

So far 3" x 3" x 8ft treated corner posts have been purchased. The next step is to finish the plans for both booth and shed. However to do this I need to find what dimension of timber is required for the stud walls. Should I use 2" x 2" or something larger is required?

Thanks :)


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:11 am 
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Personally I'd have made up the frames for the four sides using something like 4 x 2in pressure treated CLS with the upright studs on 400mm centres (assuming that the insides are to be lined with 12mm plasterboard). The four sides are built on the flat then raised into position and bolted together in the corners with galvanised steel coach bolts prior to cladding. For the 15ft long sides I'd possibly consider making the sides up in two parts due to the weight of a 15 x 8ft frame (treated timber when still wet is very heavy), In that case it would be as well to add a one-piece 15ft long binder to the top of the adjacent frames to both straighten and strengthen them. The height of the frames is reduced by the thickness of the timber to accommodate this.

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OK, I'm an "old school" chippie, so please don't ask me to do a bodge job - I didn't bring my horse today and in any case you don't seem to have a hitching rail!



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:04 am 
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Job and Knock wrote:
Personally I'd have made up the frames for the four sides using something like 4 x 2in pressure treated CLS with the upright studs on 400mm centres (assuming that the insides are to be lined with 12mm plasterboard). The four sides are built on the flat then raised into position and bolted together in the corners with galvanised steel coach bolts prior to cladding. For the 15ft long sides I'd possibly consider making the sides up in two parts due to the weight of a 15 x 8ft frame (treated timber when still wet is very heavy), In that case it would be as well to add a one-piece 15ft long binder to the top of the adjacent frames to both straighten and strengthen them. The height of the frames is reduced by the thickness of the timber to accommodate this.


Many thanks for the reply there :) unfortunately I'm not familiar with some of the terminology, this is the first carpentary job I've tackled. Might I ask what pressure treated CLS is?

I didn't buy the corner posts, that was someone else's idea. However the intention is to fix the stud walls via screws to them. You mention 400mm centres, could you elaborate to what these are?

Also, is it essential to build the stud wall on a horizontal surface as opppsed to putting it together vertically?

Lastly, a 15ft binder??

Thanks :)


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:20 pm 
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The Z'eer wrote:
Might I ask what pressure treated CLS is?

CLS = Canadian Lumber Standard. This is regularised timber (i.e sawn timber which has been passed through a 4-sided moulder to give it a moderately smooth, splinter-free surface and where the sharp corners (arrisses) have been rounded over. This timber is far less likely to give you splinters or cuts when handling it.

Pressure treated timber - timber which has been infused with a rot proofing compound (oftem Tanalith E) to extend its' life in exterior environments where it is likely to be exposed to weather and boring insects. Sometimes the term "tanalised" is used instead. If freshly treated the timber is often wet and heavy

The Z'eer wrote:
I didn't buy the corner posts, that was someone else's idea. However the intention is to fix the stud walls via screws to them. You mention 400mm centres, could you elaborate to what these are?

The point is that in general joinery work it is both faster and cheaper (as well as stronger and more accurate) to assemble a frame flat on the floor then raise it up into the final position. The frame should comprise a sole plate at the bottom, a header at the top and vertical studs and may be made cheaply by simply nailing it together (although screwing is more rigid). The studs need to be set at constant centres so that where the sheet material joints are they land on a stud. Standard sheet sizes for plywood are Imperial (e.g. 8 x 4ft or 2440 x 1220mm) whilst for plasterboard they are metric (e.g. 2400 x 1200). This means that the centre lines (centres) of the studs MUST correspond to the widths of the cladding material - and if you are using plasterboard that means they must be set at 1200mm centres (any plywood on the other side of a frame would need to be sawn to suit). The problem is that at 1200mm centres the framework won't be strong enough to carry much weight and the cladding will falp around. For structural reasons we normally make the centres 400mm or 16in (and screw to the studs on these lines).

The Z'eer wrote:
Also, is it essential to build the stud wall on a horizontal surface as opppsed to putting it together vertically?

No, but assembling flat and then raising into position is faster, more accurate, easier and far, far less strenuous, especially on an 8ft high wall. On a 15ft high wall I'll often fix in situ, but that's only because there is rarely the room to assemble and lift such things into place - that and the weight just becomes far too great to manhandle

The Z'eer wrote:
Lastly, a 15ft binder??

Sketch-Ups to follow

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OK, I'm an "old school" chippie, so please don't ask me to do a bodge job - I didn't bring my horse today and in any case you don't seem to have a hitching rail!



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:17 pm 
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Job and Knock wrote:
The Z'eer wrote:
Lastly, a 15ft binder??

Sketch-Ups to follow

Actually I was assuming that the shed would be 15 x 9ft..... Oops! You quoted 6 x 4ft for the compressor shed, so how big is the structure overall? If it is just 6 x 4ft I'd reduce the timber section to 3 x 2in treated CLS as the larger section isn't needed

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"The person who never made a mistake, never made anything" - Albert Einstein

OK, I'm an "old school" chippie, so please don't ask me to do a bodge job - I didn't bring my horse today and in any case you don't seem to have a hitching rail!



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:59 am 
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Job and Knock wrote:
The Z'eer wrote:
Might I ask what pressure treated CLS is?

CLS = Canadian Lumber Standard. This is regularised timber (i.e sawn timber which has been passed through a 4-sided moulder to give it a moderately smooth, splinter-free surface and where the sharp corners (arrisses) have been rounded over. This timber is far less likely to give you splinters or cuts when handling it.

Pressure treated timber - timber which has been infused with a rot proofing compound (oftem Tanalith E) to extend its' life in exterior environments where it is likely to be exposed to weather and boring insects. Sometimes the term "tanalised" is used instead. If freshly treated the timber is often wet and heavy

The Z'eer wrote:
I didn't buy the corner posts, that was someone else's idea. However the intention is to fix the stud walls via screws to them. You mention 400mm centres, could you elaborate to what these are?

The point is that in general joinery work it is both faster and cheaper (as well as stronger and more accurate) to assemble a frame flat on the floor then raise it up into the final position. The frame should comprise a sole plate at the bottom, a header at the top and vertical studs and may be made cheaply by simply nailing it together (although screwing is more rigid). The studs need to be set at constant centres so that where the sheet material joints are they land on a stud. Standard sheet sizes for plywood are Imperial (e.g. 8 x 4ft or 2440 x 1220mm) whilst for plasterboard they are metric (e.g. 2400 x 1200). This means that the centre lines (centres) of the studs MUST correspond to the widths of the cladding material - and if you are using plasterboard that means they must be set at 1200mm centres (any plywood on the other side of a frame would need to be sawn to suit). The problem is that at 1200mm centres the framework won't be strong enough to carry much weight and the cladding will falp around. For structural reasons we normally make the centres 400mm or 16in (and screw to the studs on these lines).

The Z'eer wrote:
Also, is it essential to build the stud wall on a horizontal surface as opppsed to putting it together vertically?

No, but assembling flat and then raising into position is faster, more accurate, easier and far, far less strenuous, especially on an 8ft high wall. On a 15ft high wall I'll often fix in situ, but that's only because there is rarely the room to assemble and lift such things into place - that and the weight just becomes far too great to manhandle

The Z'eer wrote:
Lastly, a 15ft binder??

Sketch-Ups to follow


Ok, thanks for the tips and advice there really appreciated! :) I'll construct the stud walls horizontally on the concrete base, then fix them in place once built.

This is a joint project with my Dad, I believe he's purchased some of that timber you mentioned, CLS (2" x4") Also, thank you for relaying some of the carpentry terminology with regards to the stud walls. We haven't decided as yet to whether we will be using plasterboard or plywood to skin the interior, though leaning towards plywood at present.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:06 am 
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if you use 12mm plywood you can hang most things from it
it will take heavy knocks and stop the wall racking[leaning over] with weight

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:09 am 
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Job and Knock wrote:
Job and Knock wrote:
The Z'eer wrote:
Lastly, a 15ft binder??

Sketch-Ups to follow

Actually I was assuming that the shed would be 15 x 9ft..... Oops! You quoted 6 x 4ft for the compressor shed, so how big is the structure overall? If it is just 6 x 4ft I'd reduce the timber section to 3 x 2in treated CLS as the larger section isn't needed


Ok, so there will be two structures in a reasonable close vicinity to one another. The main building (spray booth/workshop) will be 15ft length x 9ft width x 8ft tall. The secondary building (compressor housing) will be 6ft length x 4ft width x 8ft tall. Both will incorporate flat roofs, the high side being 8ft with the low side being 7ft.

Thanks for the recommendation of reducing the stud wall timber to 3" x 2". However it may work out cheaper if all of these timbers are 2" x 4" when bulk buying with eBay.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:11 am 
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big-all wrote:
if you use 12mm plywood you can hang most things from it
it will take heavy knocks and stop the wall racking[leaning over] with weight


Thank you :) I think plywood will be required, as you mention it's stronger and tougher than plasterboard. Being a workshop I'd imagine shelving will appear at some point.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:04 pm 
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Initially you said "spray booth" in which case a lining of an non-inflamable material is highly desireable (something like two skins of 12mm plasterboard). If you need to add shelves then this could be accommodated at the build stage by installing plywood or OSB patresses between the studs, or by simply adding a layer of 12mm plywood over the framework on the inside before cladding with plasterboard. Plasterboard performs another useful function - it helps insulate the building - and if you are spraying in there you are going to need to consider both sound insulation (spraying can be quite noisy) and heat insulation (because you are going to empty the unit of heat pretty quickly when you start to extract the spray fumes). Have you considered the running costs of providing the necessary of make-up heat?

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OK, I'm an "old school" chippie, so please don't ask me to do a bodge job - I didn't bring my horse today and in any case you don't seem to have a hitching rail!



For this message the author Job and Knock has received gratitude : The Z'eer
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:01 pm 
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Job and Knock wrote:
Initially you said "spray booth" in which case a lining of an non-inflamable material is highly desireable (something like two skins of 12mm plasterboard). If you need to add shelves then this could be accommodated at the build stage by installing plywood or OSB patresses between the studs, or by simply adding a layer of 12mm plywood over the framework on the inside before cladding with plasterboard. Plasterboard performs another useful function - it helps insulate the building - and if you are spraying in there you are going to need to consider both sound insulation (spraying can be quite noisy) and heat insulation (because you are going to empty the unit of heat pretty quickly when you start to extract the spray fumes). Have you considered the running costs of providing the necessary of make-up heat?


Indeed, the larger of the two buildings will initially serve as a spray booth. I do agree in respect to your concerns about using materials which flame resistant, although I shouldn't imagine it'll be much of a concern.

ATEX Zone 1 lighting and extraction is planned plus an extinguisher will be to hand if required. I shouldn't imagine noise will be an issue, the compressor will be housed in the secondary building and is belt driven as opposed to shaft.

However, the idea of plasterboard over plywood might not be a bad idea. As for heat insulation, only professional installations incorporate this into purpose built booths, otherwise is extra expenditure which isn't really required. The intention is spray in spring through till early autumn relying purel on ambient temperature, 2K paint cures super quick!

You mentioned something about sketch-ups earlier on??


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:08 pm 
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OK, to give you an idea about what I was thinking of:

Attachment:
Shed Framing 001_01.JPG
Shed Framing 001_01.JPG [ 22.29 KiB | Viewed 21 times ]

Above: Starting with a concrete slab
Below: The end frames are first made-up on the flat. Note the extra support pieces inserted into the corners to carry the interior cladding. If you don't want to clad, then omit these.
Attachment:
Shed Framing 001_02 End Frame.JPG
Shed Framing 001_02 End Frame.JPG [ 41.49 KiB | Viewed 21 times ]


Attachment:
Shed Framing 001_03 End Frame in Position.JPG
Shed Framing 001_03 End Frame in Position.JPG [ 44.33 KiB | Viewed 21 times ]

Above: Having built the end frames one of these can be raised-up into position and temporarily held up using a 2 x 2 (or anything suitable) nailed to the frame and screwed into the concrete base. The sole plate should be permanently fixed to the concrete base with frame fixings, large screws/plugs, Rawlplugs, etc (as required)
Below: The first "half" of the back is then assembled on the flat and lifted into position against the first end frame. The two are held together with G-cramps whilst they are fixed together (coach bolts or coach screws). Note that the frame is shorter than the end by the height of one thickness of framing material (in this case 44mm)
Attachment:
Shed Framing 001_04 End Frame and First Back Frame in Position.JPG
Shed Framing 001_04 End Frame and First Back Frame in Position.JPG [ 58.17 KiB | Viewed 21 times ]


Attachment:
Shed Framing 001_05 Both Back Frames in Position.JPG
Shed Framing 001_05 Both Back Frames in Position.JPG [ 88.69 KiB | Viewed 21 times ]

Above: The second back frame is assembled and lifted into position. This, too is fixed to the floor as well as to the first back frame. Ideally, although not shown, there should be some form of bracing to the ground in place It is very important to get the sole plates of these to running in line. This is done by using a string line and travellers
Below: A single piece (ideally) binder is fixed to the tops of the two frames to straighten and strengthen them. Once again the frames need to be checked for straightness using a string line and travellers
Attachment:
Shed Framing 001_06 Binder Applied to Tops of Back Frames.JPG
Shed Framing 001_06 Binder Applied to Tops of Back Frames.JPG [ 75.65 KiB | Viewed 21 times ]


The binder is there to straighten and strengthen the two frames when they are put together. It is used because wet timbers are heavy and there is a physical limit to what a single man (or even two men) can lift unaided, so it is easier to make the frames in smaller parts and fix them together


Note that I've illustrated 400 centres on the end but 600mm centres on the backs. If you are cladding with plywood or OSB you could go to 600mm centres throughout, but for waney edge I'd recommend closing up to 400mm. The most rigid frames are made by screwing (5.0 x 90 or 100 screws) rther tht nailing

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OK, I'm an "old school" chippie, so please don't ask me to do a bodge job - I didn't bring my horse today and in any case you don't seem to have a hitching rail!


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:51 pm 
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J&K - you put a lot into your replies, which are always worth reading even if not something I am about to do..
Thanks Mate !


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