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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:53 pm 
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steviejoiner74 wrote:
Cantseeitfrommyhouse wrote:
steviejoiner74 wrote:
This is one of the growing problems with this forum now,people giving out bad advice. I’m sorry but anyone endorsing putting kitchen cabinets up with plasterboard fixings doesn’t know what they’re talking about. Fill it with plates,tins etc and it’s really heavy. Take a look at the brackets they hang off....you’re relying on a board fixing 30mm of plasterboard then another board fixing. The plasterboard will fail,that’s a given.
That’s my final say on the matter.


Yeah; you being one of them. :roll:


Anybody advocating using toggle fixings to hang kitchen units from is a complete amateur and would be sacked on the spot if caught doing this on site. I’ve taken the bait and responded to you,you’ll feel much better now.
Please enlighten the forum and tell us what you do for a living?


How is my CV going to affect the compressive/tensile/sheer strength of plasterboard fixings and plasterboard exactly? :scratch:

Or indeed the appropriate load capacity of a chipboard carcass held together with beech dowels and spit?

But as I'm a generous sort I'll make you an offer. I'll give you £1000 for every kitchen unit I've ever had to pick up off the floor and refit to a noggin.

Just because they do it "like that on site m8", doesn't necessarily make it the right way nor the only way.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:17 pm 
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I am not an expert but if there are vertical timber battens could you remove a section of plaster and then bridge with a cupboard rail? Obviously it depends on how far the timber battens are.

https://www.locksonline.com/Cabinet-Han ... gIXbfD_BwE

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:27 pm 
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London mike 61 wrote:


Those fixings look well handy.
Cantseeitfrommyhouse wrote:
As long as it's minimum 12.5mm thick wallboard in good condition you'll be fine with these...

<span class="skimlinks-unlinked">https://www.toolstation.com/shop/p73656</span>

p*ssing about with noggins is seriously overkill for something as light as a kitchen cupboard.


Sorry Cantseeitfrommyhouse those fixings might be OK for a bathroom cabinet holding soap/toothpaste/towels/toiletries ... I'm with Stevie and ayjay.

Not man enough for a loaded kitchen cabinet.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:10 pm 
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Cantseeitfrommyhouse wrote:
steviejoiner74 wrote:
Cantseeitfrommyhouse wrote:
steviejoiner74 wrote:
This is one of the growing problems with this forum now,people giving out bad advice. I’m sorry but anyone endorsing putting kitchen cabinets up with plasterboard fixings doesn’t know what they’re talking about. Fill it with plates,tins etc and it’s really heavy. Take a look at the brackets they hang off....you’re relying on a board fixing 30mm of plasterboard then another board fixing. The plasterboard will fail,that’s a given.
That’s my final say on the matter.


Yeah; you being one of them. :roll:


Anybody advocating using toggle fixings to hang kitchen units from is a complete amateur and would be sacked on the spot if caught doing this on site. I’ve taken the bait and responded to you,you’ll feel much better now.
Please enlighten the forum and tell us what you do for a living?


How is my CV going to affect the compressive/tensile/sheer strength of plasterboard fixings and plasterboard exactly? :scratch:

Or indeed the appropriate load capacity of a chipboard carcass held together with beech dowels and spit?

But as I'm a generous sort I'll make you an offer. I'll give you £1000 for every kitchen unit I've ever had to pick up off the floor and refit to a noggin.

Just because they do it "like that on site m8", doesn't necessarily make it the right way nor the only way.

So your a kitchen fitter or a joiner? Thought not. Typical response from a diyer who thinks because it’s not failed for him it’s the right way to do it! Trust me,when the units or radiators come away from the wall the homeowner doesn’t ask the clown back who bodged it to bodge it again.
And I’ve seen dozens of radiators and kitchen units come away from the walls as they’ve been bodged using plasterboard fixings.
Take a look at the bracket the units hang from and look at how close the spacing of the screws will be,no way on Earth the plasterboard fixing is designed to go within 20-30mm of another one. You’re relying on a slither of plasterboard between the two toggles taking the weight.



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:12 pm 
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nick200 wrote:
I am not an expert but if there are vertical timber battens could you remove a section of plaster and then bridge with a cupboard rail? Obviously it depends on how far the timber battens are.

https://www.locksonline.com/Cabinet-Han ... gIXbfD_BwE

They are great for long runs of units as you can hit a stud every 400mm.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:18 pm 
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steviejoiner74 wrote:
nick200 wrote:
I am not an expert but if there are vertical timber battens could you remove a section of plaster and then bridge with a cupboard rail? Obviously it depends on how far the timber battens are.

https://www.locksonline.com/Cabinet-Han ... gIXbfD_BwE

They are great for long runs of units as you can hit a stud every 400mm.


We had an issue with cables in the walls but they helped us out. It was on a solid wall and a short run though so not sure if it would help in this situation.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:40 pm 
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steviejoiner74 wrote:
Cantseeitfrommyhouse wrote:
steviejoiner74 wrote:
Cantseeitfrommyhouse wrote:
steviejoiner74 wrote:
This is one of the growing problems with this forum now,people giving out bad advice. I’m sorry but anyone endorsing putting kitchen cabinets up with plasterboard fixings doesn’t know what they’re talking about. Fill it with plates,tins etc and it’s really heavy. Take a look at the brackets they hang off....you’re relying on a board fixing 30mm of plasterboard then another board fixing. The plasterboard will fail,that’s a given.
That’s my final say on the matter.


Yeah; you being one of them. :roll:


Anybody advocating using toggle fixings to hang kitchen units from is a complete amateur and would be sacked on the spot if caught doing this on site. I’ve taken the bait and responded to you,you’ll feel much better now.
Please enlighten the forum and tell us what you do for a living?


How is my CV going to affect the compressive/tensile/sheer strength of plasterboard fixings and plasterboard exactly? :scratch:

Or indeed the appropriate load capacity of a chipboard carcass held together with beech dowels and spit?

But as I'm a generous sort I'll make you an offer. I'll give you £1000 for every kitchen unit I've ever had to pick up off the floor and refit to a noggin.

Just because they do it "like that on site m8", doesn't necessarily make it the right way nor the only way.

So your a kitchen fitter or a joiner? Thought not. Typical response from a diyer who thinks because it’s not failed for him it’s the right way to do it! Trust me,when the units or radiators come away from the wall the homeowner doesn’t ask the clown back who bodged it to bodge it again.
And I’ve seen dozens of radiators and kitchen units come away from the walls as they’ve been bodged using plasterboard fixings.
Take a look at the bracket the units hang from and look at how close the spacing of the screws will be,no way on Earth the plasterboard fixing is designed to go within 20-30mm of another one. You’re relying on a slither of plasterboard between the two toggles taking the weight.


Wrong. I not only fit kitchens I make them. Among many other things.

Yep I daresay a council house tennant could pull a plasterboard fixing out of a wall by yanking on a radiator. Doesn't really prove much.

Simple fact remains that all of the wall units in my kitchen and everybody else's in my road are held up with spiral self drilling fixings. As fitted by Bovis's subcontractor of choice. Would I do that? No. Are they all still on the wall? Yes. Do i live in fear of them thundering down in the middle of the night? No.

Fischer fixings are rated to 0.15kn each in 12.5mm plasterboard. 4 fixings per cab = approx 60kg per cab. If the homeowner is putting an AVERAGE of more than 40kg load per cab in a run of wall units they're an idiot.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:03 pm 
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Cantseeitfrommyhouse wrote:
As long as it's minimum 12.5mm thick wallboard in good condition you'll be fine with these...

https://www.toolstation.com/shop/p73656

p*ssing about with noggins is seriously overkill for something as light as a kitchen cupboard.

Sorry, but I don't agree either. I've just taken a quick look in one of our upper cabinets - quite apart from the cabinet itself, there is about 40 kg of canned and bottled products in there. The cabinet next door has somewhere around 35 kg of crockery and glasses in it. When I've fitted kitchens I've been seriously underwhelmed by the wimpy little brackets that many suppliers provide (like the ones below)
Attachment:
Kitchen Cabinet Hanger Wall Plate 001_01.jpg
Kitchen Cabinet Hanger Wall Plate 001_01.jpg [ 10.62 KiB | Viewed 231 times ]

because they don't work well on poor quality or uneven walls (most Victorian houses in my experience), or on dot and dab walls and they never ever seem to land on a noggin in stud walls. For that reason if I'm putting up a row of cabs I'll often cut notches in the backs and hang all the cabinets on a long cabinet rail:
Attachment:
Kitchen Cabinet Long Hanger Rail 001_01.jpg
Kitchen Cabinet Long Hanger Rail 001_01.jpg [ 9.52 KiB | Viewed 231 times ]

In ropey masonry that means that you can fix using multiple redundant plugs and screws to ensure the things are going to carry enough weight, whilst on stud walls you have a pretty good chance of hitting the studs (and where you can't then multiple redundant umbrella fixings are a great help - and as a last resort a cutout in the PB and a wooden pattress will do the trick). Bear in mind that I also screw the carcasses together beneath the screw plates and in unobtrusive places at the back so that they become, in effect a single large unit. Dot and dab presents a whole different series of problems - and I for one don't trust it to carry any weight unless I've either cut out a section and installed a timber or OSB pattress SDS fixed to the masonry beneath (7mm holes, brown plugs and minimum 5 x 70 screws) with the PB then replaced on top, or on rare occasions just using extra long screws (which I like a lot less).

For single cabinets the long rails can sometimes be used providing you can get two fixings into the noggins (in stud walls), or providing you can get at least one noggin fixing and then three or four umbrella fixings in (assuming 12mm PB - never thinner stuff). TBH, though, if I hit a situation like that or the wall behind is dot and dab I prefer to cut the PB out and install a plywood or OSB pattress then replace the PB as above

Why do all this? Because I've found that people (and kids, and sometimes sparkies) have this wonderful tendency to climb on top of work surfaces and use the cabinets to haul themselves upright in order to change light bulbs, find stuff on top of the cabinets, wire-in stuff, etc. And if they pull a cabinet off it's always the kitchen fitter's fault. I'd rather it wasn't, and in 35+ years plus of fitting kitchens (admittedly not every week, but nevertheless quiet a few) I've never had a complaint or claim because the cabinet fell off or was pulled off the wall - and maybe smashed the lady of the house's Royal Crown Derby (although a couple of times I admit to having said lady burst into tears when she reappeared unexpectedly and "caught" me in the act of "decimating" her kitchen by cutting girt great holes in the walls to install the pattresses). Maybe it's OTT and belt and braces - but it works - and I've seen other "quick and easy" installs where it didn't and cabs did get pulled off the wall

I have and continue to use umbrella fixings in interior fit-out work where I know that the item(s) being secured are either light or fairly flat to the wall, but I wouldn't use toggle fixings or even umbrellas on their own for a task such as hanging heavy cabinets onstud or dot and dab walls. Old school? Yes, but not all old school learning is bad - and I've seen enough fly by night kids come and go in this game over the years (and put right their appallingly slipshod work) to have a developed a certain perspective. So I'm with Stevie

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:39 pm 
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Cantseeitfrommyhouse wrote:
Yep I daresay a council house tennant could pull a plasterboard fixing out of a wall by yanking on a radiator. Doesn't really prove much.

So can drunks in night clubs, elderly people in old folks homes and even boysterous kids in large detached modern houses (who can certainly manage to pull 1 hour doors off 4 x 4in heavy duty ball bearing fire door hinges in my experience).... Just because someone lives in a council house doesn't necessarily make them a chav (although there is an estate up the road where that statement may not be true, either :roll: )

Cantseeitfrommyhouse wrote:
Fischer fixings are rated to 0.15kn each in 12.5mm plasterboard. 4 fixings per cab = approx 60kg per cab. If the homeowner is putting an AVERAGE of more than 40kg load per cab in a run of wall units they're an idiot.

Thanks. I'll be sure and tell the wife..... or then again, maybe not :help: . That weight I quoted, 40kg is made up of about 60 or so cans and bottles and it is a big cabinet (900 high x 600 wide), but then it is the larder cabinet. I'm sure that other folk must do similar stuff......

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:53 pm 
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Funnily enough we had this thread posted today

rescue-mobile-phone-from-behind-fitted-wall-units-t92853.html

Would any-one expect those umbrella fixings to support a 10 year old child as well as god knows how many tins of baked beans and spaghetti hoops ????

Mind you if it had been supported by those, then the phone would have been easier to retrieve. I't be on the floor with the tins, the cabinet and the 10 year old... :lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:34 am 
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wine~o wrote:
Would any-one expect those umbrella fixings to support a 10 year old child as well as god knows how many tins of baked beans and spaghetti hoops ????

I've used quiet a few of them over the years. They are easier to install (and get a good fix) than "curly-whirlies" (Redi-Drivas) and they can support quite a high static load providing that load is fairly near to the plane of the wall (e.g. flat advertising boards, deco panels, etc). They also have far better pull-out resistance than either curly-whirlies or toggle fixings. Where they fail is when they are expected to resist pull-out unaided (e.g. the levering effect a fully laden kitchen cabinet supported on umbtrellas alone near the top edge would have). In that case failure is probably inevitable sooner or later because you simply never know how good the plasterboard is.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:49 am 
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I'm for "belt and braces" too. So I'm not for PB fixings for anything like this either. I'd have to get a solid fix, either to the woodwork or the wall behind for anything this heavy.
I always assume that with anything hung off a wall, either a kid will climb on it, or someone is going to grab it for support at some time.
25Kg in the OP's post. plus J&K's 40Kg, makes 65Kg or 10st 3lb. So you already have the equivalent of a man's weight hanging off there.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:20 pm 
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Dave54 wrote:
25Kg in the OP's post. plus J&K's 40Kg, makes 65Kg or 10st 3lb. So you already have the equivalent of a man's weight hanging off there.

Jeez, Dave! You must be really tiny!


Or maybe it's just that I'm a big lump :cb

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:35 pm 
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:lol:
Inside every, ahem, large person there is a skinny person trying to get out. :lol:
With apologies to any skinny persons. . .
These days I'm the heavy duty version of Dave.
I definitely wouldn't hang me off PB fixings!


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:58 pm 
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Yep. All of the above are more sensible options for high load situations in an existing kitchen than cutting the plasterboard (along with the vapour control layer) to shreds :thumbright:

Although I still maintain that if you must insist on putting high loads in more than one cupboard in a run, you should be supporting it from underneath, as regardless of how well your wall fixing holds you're still relying on (in most cases with pre-manufactured ) 15mm chipboard for structural integrity. Which is obviously actually ~4mm where the dowels are.

I weigh 70kg and I can confirm (having just tested it) that afor mentioned bovis kitchen cabinet (300mm wide on it's own), afixed in said pikey way, can support my weight hung from the top cornice. Go figure, as the yanks say. :B


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