Can I replace non-timer extractor with a timed extractor?

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Can I replace non-timer extractor with a timed extractor?

Post by gc1648 » Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:17 am

Hi all

I'm after a little help with replacement of a shower room extractor. We had a Vent-Axia VASF100B which stopped working yesterday. It was operated via the light switch for one of the lights in the shower room, with an isolator switch outside of the room just for the extractor, not the light.

I decided to replace it with a VASF100T - the same unit but with a timer function. I'd assumed the wiring would be identical and the timer would be operated via the extractor's circuitry, but realise that may not be correct as the installation diagram shows an additional LS wire required which I do not see.

I took a pic prior to disconnection of the old VASF100B, as well as the new VASF100T unit.

Is it the case that I'm missing the LS wire required and can only replace with another non-timer unit or am I able to get the timer model working?

TIA for your patience with a newbie question :)

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Re: Can I replace non-timer extractor with a timed extractor

Post by OnlyMe » Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:55 am

:welcomeuhm:

The coiled up brown core of the 3 core and earth might be your friend.
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Re: Can I replace non-timer extractor with a timed extractor

Post by gc1648 » Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:13 pm

OnlyMe wrote::welcomeuhm:

The coiled up brown core of the 3 core and earth might be your friend.
Thanks

Edit: Black is live but not Brown at the point where they connect to the extractor.

Is the wiring in the isolator switch likely to be the key?
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Re: Can I replace non-timer extractor with a timed extractor

Post by someone-else » Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:21 pm

gc1648 wrote:Edit: Black is live but not Brown at the point where they connect to the extractor.

Is the wiring in the isolator switch likely to be the key?
There is no such thing as "Thou shalt put this wire here and that wire there" Open the isolator and have a look.
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Re: Can I replace non-timer extractor with a timed extractor

Post by gc1648 » Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:53 pm

someone-else wrote:
gc1648 wrote:Edit: Black is live but not Brown at the point where they connect to the extractor.

Is the wiring in the isolator switch likely to be the key?
There is no such thing as "Thou shalt put this wire here and that wire there" Open the isolator and have a look.
Fair comment, here's what's happening at the isolator:

Image

When the shower light is 'off' none of the wires are live.

When the shower light is 'on' both L2 wires (black wire/brown sleeve) are live.

(this is with no wires connected to the new extractor fan)
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Re: Can I replace non-timer extractor with a timed extractor

Post by someone-else » Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:17 pm

You need one of them to be permanent live. (Regardless of if the light is on or not) Guess what you have to open next. Yep the light. Need to know where the brown is, it may be a simple case of move it one terminal.

This is based on the facts you have so far given

It does seem odd that a 3 core and earth has been used (As you should) and not to have connected it correctly. I would have to ask, what are you testing for live with?
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Fret not, a forum is a collection of opinions. Above, are mine.

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Working on anything electrical? have you got a multi meter? why not? Would you hit a nail with a shoe?

If gloom had a voice, it would be me. :mrgreen:

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Re: Can I replace non-timer extractor with a timed extractor

Post by gc1648 » Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:41 pm

someone-else wrote:You need one of them to be permanent live. (Regardless of if the light is on or not) Guess what you have to open next. Yep the light. Need to know where the brown is, it may be a simple case of move it one terminal.

This is based on the facts you have so far given

It does seem odd that a 3 core and earth has been used (As you should) and not to have connected it correctly. I would have to ask, what are you testing for live with?

Thanks for the reply.

Testing for live using a Fluke Volt Alert.

It's been a few years since we had the work done but I seem to remember that the connections for the light in question (Philips Hue strip within shower - see pic) are only accessible through the hole for the GU10 downlight in the centre of the room as the wiring is all hidden away in the cavity above the plasterboard.

I'll take the downlighter out and have a fish around to see if I can find the lightstrip connections.

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Re: Can I replace non-timer extractor with a timed extractor

Post by gc1648 » Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:56 pm

Ah I remember now, the Philips lightstrip uses a standard UK plug so they had to install a single socket extension in the cavity and the light is plugged into that.

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Re: Can I replace non-timer extractor with a timed extractor

Post by someone-else » Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:04 pm

You are there I (we) are not, is one of the grey cables in the picture coming from the fan?

1) If yes, where is the brown core?

2) If no, where is the other end of it?
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Re: Can I replace non-timer extractor with a timed extractor

Post by arco_iris » Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:08 pm

What s-e means is (as it is not a conventional light as he was expecting) you need to look wherever the trailing socket is connected and how - it must be fed from the light switch.

Concerning the isolator:
gc1648 wrote:When the shower light is 'off' none of the wires are live.

When the shower light is 'on' both L2 wires (black wire/brown sleeve) are live.

(this is with no wires connected to the new extractor fan)
To clarify, then, you are saying that neither plain brown wire at the isolator (left side of picture) is ever live? Whether the light is on or off?

S-e is trying to establish where that bottom brown wire comes from, because it should be live.
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Re: Can I replace non-timer extractor with a timed extractor

Post by gc1648 » Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:45 pm

someone-else wrote: is one of the grey cables in the picture coming from the fan?
No. The pictures below may help explain - the two grey cables you can see are connected to the GU10 and the socket for the lightstrip. Both are wedged behind a 2 x 4 so I can't pull them out any further. I can see a third grey cable headed to the extractor but it's out of reach. All 3 grey cables head back in the direction of where the 4 gang switch is outside of the shower room. (i.e. Loft room).


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arco_iris wrote:What s-e means is (as it is not a conventional light as he was expecting) you need to look wherever the trailing socket is connected and how - it must be fed from the light switch.

Concerning the isolator:
gc1648 wrote:When the shower light is 'off' none of the wires are live.

When the shower light is 'on' both L2 wires (black wire/brown sleeve) are live.

(this is with no wires connected to the new extractor fan)
To clarify, then, you are saying that neither plain brown wire at the isolator (left side of picture) is ever live? Whether the light is on or off?

S-e is trying to establish where that bottom brown wire comes from, because it should be live.
^^ Yes this is correct when there are no wires connected into the extractor. One of them did become live earlier after I'd tried connecting the extractor. I unwired the extractor again though when I realised I wasn't sure what I was doing :oops:

Here's how the 4 gang switch is connected:

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Re: Can I replace non-timer extractor with a timed extractor

Post by someone-else » Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:14 pm

hmmm......

Is there a single brown on its own not connected to anything? (Switch the electricity off first)
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Re: Can I replace non-timer extractor with a timed extractor

Post by arco_iris » Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:21 pm

You need more than a Fluke Volt Alert (won't help you in the back of that switch) - you need a proper multi meter or an electrician.

Which of the four switches pictured operates the lights that come on at the same time as the fan, i.e., which one operates the isolator?

As s-e points out, we're not there, I have my doubts that this can be solved. But you have a whole bunch of Lives in that chocbloc connector, are there any unconnected brown wires in that back box (that disappear into a 3+e cable?

s-e beat me to it......
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Re: Can I replace non-timer extractor with a timed extractor

Post by gc1648 » Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:34 pm

Can't turn power off right now to look for spare brown as the Mrs. has been waiting to put a wash on all afternoon and she'd kill me if I switched it off now mid-cycle.. :shock:

Switch that turns shower light and extractor on is second from left:

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Thanks to you both for persevering :thank_you:
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Re: Can I replace non-timer extractor with a timed extractor

Post by arco_iris » Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:58 pm

AHA! Is that brown wire at the top left hand corner of the back box attached to anything? It looks like it's curled up, & I spotted it by following the black-sleeved-brown that comes out of the second switch.
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