Patchy Ceilings

Painting and decorating, plaster mouldings, Artexing questions

Moderator: Moderators

Doc M
Newly registered Member
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:23 am
Location: Powys
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Patchy Ceilings

Post by Doc M » Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:42 pm

Just used contact matt white (Screwfix no nonsense) thinned by 30% for mist coat on newly skimmed (and over boarded) ceiling.

Followed by 2 x coats of the same - each thinned by 10%. Used an extension pole and 12" Hamilton Perfection: https://www.screwfix.com/p/hamilton-per ... -x-1/17399

I take some solace from the fact that even the pros struggle with ceilings (a MOST enlightening discussion about it here: http://www.painterspitstop.com/threads/ ... ings.7641/).

The ceiling I've just painted is 20 foot square (triple aspect room, 2.4 metres height). Took me just over 1 hour and I did my level best to maintain a wet edge and lay off.

I sincerely hope that the patchy ceiling problem does not persist with the rest of the house - they are smaller than the living room ceiling so I hope that will make a difference in keeping a wet edge.

Perhaps I have overlooked something? :dunno:

Cheers - Martin.

PS Chandelier bulbs x 5 all point upward. Bad idea. It appears that lighting is a critical factor and that it's best not to have lights pointing at the ceiling. I can see things at night with the chandelier on that can't be (easily) seen during the day. Ouch!
Attachments
Ceiling.JPG
Ceiling.JPG (299.5 KiB) Viewed 1178 times
User avatar
wine~o
Senior Member
Posts: 24690
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:49 pm
Location: hants/dorset border
Has thanked: 1325 times
Been thanked: 3632 times

Re: Patchy Ceilings

Post by wine~o » Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:09 pm

TBH that looks like ripples in the plasterwork rather than a paint issue. Although a triple aspect will show up even the most minor of imperfections in either the plastering or the paintwork.
Verwood Handyman

Verwood Handyman


___________________________________________________________________

If you feel you have benefited from the Free advice given on the Forum, Please consider making a donation to UHM's Nominated charity, read all about it and donate here :

http://www.donnasdreamhouse.co.uk
Doc M
Newly registered Member
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:23 am
Location: Powys
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Patchy Ceilings

Post by Doc M » Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:43 am

Appreciate the comments - just told the Mrs!

I'll live with it. There's lots and lots to paint and the idea of hitting that large ceiling again fills me with dread - especially given what I now know with regards to the pros struggling with patchy ceilings (linked to in my original post).

The Mrs and I have agreed that we will stay away from lighting pointing directly at the ceiling!

Cheers - Martin.
Doc M
Newly registered Member
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:23 am
Location: Powys
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Patchy Ceilings

Post by Doc M » Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:06 pm

I've given it another coat. I'll have to see tomorrow if 1 x mist and 3 x top coat does it. If not, I'll try another paint specifically for ceilings before throwing a strop ( ::b :angryfire: :wtf: ), er I mean, the towel in!

Benjamin Moore ceiling paint? :help:
Desmondo15
Senior Member
Posts: 1005
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:24 pm
Has thanked: 248 times
Been thanked: 258 times

Re: Patchy Ceilings

Post by Desmondo15 » Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:31 pm

Doc M wrote:I've given it another coat. I'll have to see tomorrow if 1 x mist and 3 x top coat does it. If not, I'll try another paint specifically for ceilings before throwing a strop ( ::b :angryfire: :wtf: ), er I mean, the towel in!

Benjamin Moore ceiling paint? :help:
I thought you'd never ask....

What you need is this https://www.benjaminmoorepaint.co.uk/pr ... ing-paint/

It's as good as it gets, flawless in finish - just what you need.

If you like brilliant white go for Super white, if you like it a little more subtle go for Chantilly lace.
Doc M
Newly registered Member
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:23 am
Location: Powys
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Patchy Ceilings

Post by Doc M » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:48 am

Thanks Desmondo15 - sadly BM paint is out. I'd need 2 tubs (3.79 litres isn't enough but 4.55 litres would be). Damn those US gallons! :-(

I'm willing to pay £50 for a tub (5 litres) - but £100 (£200?) for is too much for us. Factor in 2 coats - then £200? NO CHANCE BM!

I'll just have to see what else is about for ceilings at around £50 - if there is anything... :help: ?

After a 3rd coat, I can see patches in the direction I have rolled. The patches on the previous coat was perpendicular to the current patches as I roll perpendicular on each successive coat.
So in other words the patches are now running 90 degrees to the patches on the previous roll.

An observation - the patches aren't so obvious when stood in the room - even less so as you move to the middle of the (20 feet x 20 feet room). They are much more prominent when viewed from the entrance hall standing 8 feet from the living room.

Now, when I move from the entrance hall to where (any given) patch is, I can see where the rollering is a little heavy and there is more paint than the immediate surrounding area. Conclusion? It's physics/optics at work. Angle of incidence, angle of reflection on a material (paint) that is not uniform. Combine that with a triple aspect room (light rays coming in from multiple sources/angles) and put the viewer/observer at an angle/position that is not directly under the patch (any patch on a patchy ceiling) - and the ceiling appears patchy. A solution is a paint that absorbs rather than reflects light:
https://www.benjaminmoorepaint.co.uk/ab ... en-levels/

But at a (prohibitively!) expensive cost...

https://keydifferences.com/difference-b ... ction.html
Doc M
Newly registered Member
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:23 am
Location: Powys
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Patchy Ceilings

Post by Doc M » Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:05 am

Puma has probably said the same here:
patchy-paint-after-seven-coats-help-please-t79510.html
Doc M
Newly registered Member
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:23 am
Location: Powys
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Patchy Ceilings

Post by Doc M » Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:14 am

Also, this paint might do it!

https://www.duluxdecoratorcentre.co.uk/ ... ultra-matt

I saw this also: https://www.duluxdecoratorcentre.co.uk/ ... -flat-matt

But it appears that the ultra is my last throw of the dice! :-)
OchAye
Senior Member
Posts: 4292
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:33 pm
Location: Dundee, Scotland.
Has thanked: 777 times
Been thanked: 893 times

Re: Patchy Ceilings

Post by OchAye » Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:58 pm

Go back to Wine~o's post. Between his refills he spots things.

1. As is the photograph, in which direction were you moving the roller (left to right or right to left) or did you paint from where the photo is taken towards the wall opposite?

2. Further, have a good look (close up) where the different shading appears. You got the photo as a guide. Is there more/lee/different orange peel where you have the darker looking areas next to areas with less orange peel. To save you looking up orange peel ... it is the rough(er) surface the roller sleeve leaves behind, especially when the paint dries fast. TTell us?

In a way I want to help you, this is what forum is about, in another way you deserve what you get. You paid the plasterer good money, but you can do the painting yourself because it requires little skill. And then you buy the cheapest sh*te money can buy because paint is paint it does not matter what. I am a DIYer so I am not losing my work because of what you do, but I have grown to realise that the effort in preparation is a lot more than the cost of the paint.

BTW. I am only guessing, diluting the no non-sense stuff by 10% would be at its maximum for a mist coat let alone for a top coat. Most "trade" paints would normally need some 5% of water to make them workable. As it happens, too much dilution is good for avoiding orange peel BUT you may end up needing more coats.

Feel free if you want to provide more info. on points 1 and 2.
Desmondo15
Senior Member
Posts: 1005
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:24 pm
Has thanked: 248 times
Been thanked: 258 times

Re: Patchy Ceilings

Post by Desmondo15 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:55 am

Doc M wrote:Thanks Desmondo15 - sadly BM paint is out. I'd need 2 tubs (3.79 litres isn't enough but 4.55 litres would be). Damn those US gallons! :-(

I'm willing to pay £50 for a tub (5 litres) - but £100 (£200?) for is too much for us. Factor in 2 coats - then £200? NO CHANCE BM!

I'll just have to see what else is about for ceilings at around £50 - if there is anything... :help: ?

After a 3rd coat, I can see patches in the direction I have rolled. The patches on the previous coat was perpendicular to the current patches as I roll perpendicular on each successive coat.
So in other words the patches are now running 90 degrees to the patches on the previous roll.

An observation - the patches aren't so obvious when stood in the room - even less so as you move to the middle of the (20 feet x 20 feet room). They are much more prominent when viewed from the entrance hall standing 8 feet from the living room.

Now, when I move from the entrance hall to where (any given) patch is, I can see where the rollering is a little heavy and there is more paint than the immediate surrounding area. Conclusion? It's physics/optics at work. Angle of incidence, angle of reflection on a material (paint) that is not uniform. Combine that with a triple aspect room (light rays coming in from multiple sources/angles) and put the viewer/observer at an angle/position that is not directly under the patch (any patch on a patchy ceiling) - and the ceiling appears patchy. A solution is a paint that absorbs rather than reflects light:
https://www.benjaminmoorepaint.co.uk/ab ... en-levels/

But at a (prohibitively!) expensive cost...

https://keydifferences.com/difference-b ... ction.html
It would cover in 1 coat to be fair. (49.50 a tin)
Ultra Matt sounds like a good option though.

May I also suggest getting a decent dec in to do it if your struggling before your costs spiral.
Doc M
Newly registered Member
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:23 am
Location: Powys
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Patchy Ceilings

Post by Doc M » Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:34 am

Thanks a lot OchAye and Desmondo15 for those helpful comments.

@OchAye

1. I've gone left to right and right to left on each successive ceiling roll as well as alternating 90 degrees on each successive ceiling roll. 4 coats (including mist) now in total.

2. More orange peel (rough textured). It's definitely not a plaster issue. The light is excellent this morning and I can see the exact cause of the patchiness. It's this: patchy-paint-after-seven-coats-help-please-t79510.html

As Puma stated: "The whole ceiling needs sanding down if the roller stipple texture is making it look patchy with a glancing light"

Also - I agree with the sentiment of your post - P&D is the most underrated trade IMHO - yet I've had success in the past and have a budget - and it's gone on the plumbing and plastering (and, soon, the flooring)!

As you move close to and far from (and back and forth) a given patchiness on the ceiling it can be clearly seen where the paint is on heavy and rough textured looking. Close up it's rough textured looking and from 10 or 15 feet it's patchy. I'll sand back the rough texture and get a gallon and a quart of BM paint. Certainly in a previous post I overestimated how much BM ceiling paint I would need.

@Desmondo15 - getting a pro in is out of the question I'm afraid. £5K has gone on plastering and I'll simply have to master a good ceiling job. Otherwise getting someone in to do other work is going to push the cost through the roof. We've already laid out a fortune on plumbing and flooring is to come. The savings have to be made somewhere and it'll be the painting. Besides, I've had plenty of success in the past with painting (many potential buyers and eventual buyer complemented us on the decor of our last house) - it's this triple aspect large ceiling with rough textured paint in places that's making for a patchy appearance. I'm confident that sanding back and getting the BM ceiling paint on will fix it. I'll report back. Meantime better crack on with the sanding and get that paint ordered.

The no nonsense was diluted around 25% - and really did work well to give a mist for the walls and ceilings. My subsequent ceiling coats have gotten heavy handed and the light bouncing everywhere is unforgiving! BM will, I feel, get us out of trouble.
As it happens, too much dilution is good for avoiding orange peel BUT you may end up needing more coats.
- yes absolutely.

I really am grateful for your posts. Cheers for now - Martin.
Desmondo15
Senior Member
Posts: 1005
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:24 pm
Has thanked: 248 times
Been thanked: 258 times

Re: Patchy Ceilings

Post by Desmondo15 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:53 pm

Good luck :thumbright:
OchAye
Senior Member
Posts: 4292
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:33 pm
Location: Dundee, Scotland.
Has thanked: 777 times
Been thanked: 893 times

Re: Patchy Ceilings

Post by OchAye » Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:43 pm

Too many things, below are random comments, you have googled enough, take your pick of what suits you.

- Do not get too hung up on a flat matt, you would not really tell the difference with a vinyl matt. It is the acrylic paints that start having a noticeable sheen (from my limited experience). Flat matt is fine for a period property yadda yadda yadda.

- your contract matt (i.e. non-vinyl) remains more absorbent than a vinyl paint. So if you put 3 coats on top of the mistcoat the 4th would absorb fast and would also activate the previous paint. Too much rollering and you got 4 coats to create orange peel with.

- as above if you do not let the previous coat cure and soon you are putting the second coat. Paint another ceiling and so on and let it dry as much as possible.

- the reason I asked you which direction you were painting is because the "shading" is consistent with left-right movement (but so would be ripples in the plastering).

- if you use a scuttle consider getting a tray instead (toolstation used to have some 15" or 12" wide trays for a fiver or so, wide enough to take the frame of the roller sleeve). I have only used a scuttle once (friend's warehouse) and I did not manage in that short spell to become able to load the sleeve evenly and not to overload it on one side. For what I was doing it did not matter but if you end up with a badly loaded sleeve you end up rollering more and thus more orange peel.

- Are you sure the ceiling is 20 square feet? A room 2m x 3m would be give or take 70sq feet. Not that it matters, but if your room is e.g. 2mx3m (7x10 feet) work from the narrow end towards the far end. Divide the area in blocks so for the 7ft width you might have 2 blocks 3.5 feet wide by 3-4 feet long. Paint each block overlapping as necessary ... then move forward and repeat starting from the same side with another 2 blocks overlapping those behind you. The idea is your wet edge will have to be only 7 feet wide. I am sure your room is bigger than that but try to get the idea.

- if you decide to sand (you should as Puma said so :-) ) this is your cheap option https://www.toolstation.com/shop/p55929 + a roll of https://www.toolstation.com/shop/p77944 at 120 grit (no lower number, and start gently with the 120 in case you scrape the plaster). Alternatively a 1/3 sheet sander like so https://www.screwfix.com/p/makita-bo371 ... 240v/6330j. It needs specialised sheets with holes and whatever else for the vacuum to work and you can improvise and connect a vacuum cleaner to it if you really want dust free sanding.

- do not roll too much, just enough to produce an even coat with no tramlines left from the edges of the sleeve.

- do not press the roller trying to get all the paint out of it, reload it instead and keep painting, the whole thing is a delicate process (says I that broke a 9" handle when I used it with a pole ... and it was a crap idea to even try using a 9" handle on a pole, unusable).

Maybe practice your skills in another room using normal trade paints (in alphabetic order Crown, Dulux, Johnsons or their cheaper versions MacPhersons, Armstead and Leyland) before you return to this room with the expensive Benjamin Moore stuff.
Last edited by OchAye on Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
OchAye
Senior Member
Posts: 4292
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:33 pm
Location: Dundee, Scotland.
Has thanked: 777 times
Been thanked: 893 times

Re: Patchy Ceilings

Post by OchAye » Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:45 pm

Desmondo15 wrote:Good luck :thumbright:
Shurely, I did not make it that difficult for Martin :mrgreen: I have only thrown the kitchen sink at him :LoL:
Desmondo15
Senior Member
Posts: 1005
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:24 pm
Has thanked: 248 times
Been thanked: 258 times

Re: Patchy Ceilings

Post by Desmondo15 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:04 pm

You've been very accommodating.
These users thanked the author Desmondo15 for the post:
OchAye
Rating: 7.14%
Post Reply

Return to “Painting & Decorating Forum”