Rafter plumb cut debate

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steviejoiner74
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Re: Rafter plumb cut debate

Post by steviejoiner74 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:12 pm

That’s ok in theory but reality is bent timber and wall heads that aren’t level and the building isn’t square 100 percent and that app is then no good at all.
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Re: Rafter plumb cut debate

Post by D4np » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:14 pm

steviejoiner74 wrote:That’s ok in theory but reality is bent timber and wall heads that aren’t level and the building isn’t square 100 percent and that app is then no good at all.
Would you not agree it gets you near enough to then tweak a cut if , like you say , something is out ? Especially the state of timber at the moment in this bizarre heat


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Re: Rafter plumb cut debate

Post by steviejoiner74 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:32 am

I’ll never use an app and don’t know anyone else who would either tbh. Having said that lots of youngsters use a calculator for working sums our now on site as they can’t do basic arithmetic.
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Re: Rafter plumb cut debate

Post by big-all » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:05 am

D4np wrote:
steviejoiner74 wrote:That’s ok in theory but reality is bent timber and wall heads that aren’t level and the building isn’t square 100 percent and that app is then no good at all.
Would you not agree it gets you near enough to then tweak a cut if , like you say , something is out ? Especially the state of timber at the moment in this bizarre heat


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to be fair
if a timber is used and its bowed or twisted it should only be used if you can pull 90% off them out as you complete the structure
firstly pulling more into line as you complete the framework then further leveling as you clad and load up the structure
i personally only use a calculator when i have a brain fart or want to be childish and do "shell oil" or "boobies" :lol: :lol:
we are all ------------------still learning
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Re: Rafter plumb cut debate

Post by ayjay » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:54 am

steviejoiner74 wrote:I’ll never use an app and don’t know anyone else who would either tbh.
Nor me, no such thing as apps, (or even mobile phones) when I started and we managed fine then as did other chippies hundreds of years before. I just want the pitch, the span, my ready reckoner and a calculator, roofs are one thing that I always work in metric cos the maths are easier.

big-all wrote:

i personally only use a calculator when i have a brain fart or want to be childish and do "shell oil" or "boobies" :lol: :lol:
Childish?
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Re: Rafter plumb cut debate

Post by Grendel » Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:00 pm

D4np wrote:
steviejoiner74 wrote:I did a 10 degree mono pitched roof last month and the plumb cut at the ledger certainly wasn’t 80 degrees!!
Just put in the app your 10 degree roof and I’m afraid your wrong and it must have been 80 according to this

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It would be 80degrees off the edge of the rafter but 10degrees off the square . As it is I have to agree with Steve when he says most carpenters use a line and bevel and knowing the actual angle is unimportant .
Personally I wouldn't know an app if it jumped out at me and I'd trust one even less.
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Re: Rafter plumb cut debate

Post by D4np » Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:56 pm

As the saying goes - “you can’t teach an old dog new tricks “

If you think using a string line (blowing in the wind) , bevel (easily knocked) and a nail tacked on the wall plate (hope you plumb the nail ) etc Is more accurate than a app then good luck to you all . Obviously it works for you and that’s brilliant

Just because something didn’t exist when you “were a lad “ doesn’t make it bad alternative

Don’t suppose you use a nail gun , router and jig for hinges either - because they didn’t exist back in the day - they are wrong to use ?

A lot of negativity towards the new technology..
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Re: Rafter plumb cut debate

Post by ayjay » Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:31 pm

D4np wrote:As the saying goes - “you can’t teach an old dog new tricks “

If you think using a string line (blowing in the wind) , bevel (easily knocked) and a nail tacked on the wall plate (hope you plumb the nail ) etc Is more accurate than a app then good luck to you all . Obviously it works for you and that’s brilliant

Just because something didn’t exist when you “were a lad “ doesn’t make it bad alternative

Don’t suppose you use a nail gun , router and jig for hinges either - because they didn’t exist back in the day - they are wrong to use ?

A lot of negativity towards the new technology..
There's nothing wrong with using new technology but I've never found it necessary to go overboard for cutting a roof. A circular saw and mitre saw are about as far as I go.

Paslode nails are too skinny for roofing (imo), I might make an exception for spiking rafters to a ridge, it depends on the access, it's often not ideal.

I've only ever used a string line for trimming the rafter feet after the roof is pitched, seems to work OK.
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Re: Rafter plumb cut debate

Post by D4np » Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:45 pm

ayjay wrote:
D4np wrote:As the saying goes - “you can’t teach an old dog new tricks “

If you think using a string line (blowing in the wind) , bevel (easily knocked) and a nail tacked on the wall plate (hope you plumb the nail ) etc Is more accurate than a app then good luck to you all . Obviously it works for you and that’s brilliant

Just because something didn’t exist when you “were a lad “ doesn’t make it bad alternative

Don’t suppose you use a nail gun , router and jig for hinges either - because they didn’t exist back in the day - they are wrong to use ?

A lot of negativity towards the new technology..
There's nothing wrong with using new technology but I've never found it necessary to go overboard for cutting a roof. A circular saw and mitre saw are about as far as I go.

Paslode nails are too skinny for roofing (imo), I might make an exception for spiking rafters to a ridge, it depends on the access, it's often not ideal.

I've only ever used a string line for trimming the rafter feet after the roof is pitched, seems to work OK.
DSCF1939 modified.jpg
Looks nice mate ! Something rewarding about seeing them all nice in line isn’t there . I always leave the the rafters long and using a string line , cut the same measurement off each end rafter , nail the rafter off cut on the side of the foot plumb cut (that you have cut ) string your line ,make a plumb line on your rafter , bevel ,mark ,tack a nail in the rafter up the run hook line on it (so it’s out of the way)cut , un hook line and use it for the fascia and finally leave the nail tacked in the rafter to annoy the roofers haha just kidding obviously ..........


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Re: Rafter plumb cut debate

Post by Grendel » Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:35 am

D4np wrote:As the saying goes - “you can’t teach an old dog new tricks “

If you think using a string line (blowing in the wind) , bevel (easily knocked) and a nail tacked on the wall plate (hope you plumb the nail ) etc Is more accurate than a app then good luck to you all . Obviously it works for you and that’s brilliant

Just because something didn’t exist when you “were a lad “ doesn’t make it bad alternative

Don’t suppose you use a nail gun , router and jig for hinges either - because they didn’t exist back in the day - they are wrong to use ?

A lot of negativity towards the new technology..
All the app is doing is a bit of calculation. Ideal for those with little grasp of basic maths but does it set the angles on the saw ? Does it cut the timber ? No it's just a glorified bit of working out which some can do in their head Orr on the back of a fag packet . I've nothing against new technology , it can make easier and sometimes quicker but if it robs us of the ability to think for ourselves and we become dependant upon it then I start to have a problem.
Router and jig for hinges , no I don't use them but then I probably don't hang enough to warrant one. Nail guns I have used but don't own one so don't use one on a regular basis , only if ones supplied but I find them a tad cumbersome on a roof.
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Re: Rafter plumb cut debate

Post by D4np » Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:12 pm

Grendel wrote:
D4np wrote:As the saying goes - “you can’t teach an old dog new tricks “

If you think using a string line (blowing in the wind) , bevel (easily knocked) and a nail tacked on the wall plate (hope you plumb the nail ) etc Is more accurate than a app then good luck to you all . Obviously it works for you and that’s brilliant

Just because something didn’t exist when you “were a lad “ doesn’t make it bad alternative

Don’t suppose you use a nail gun , router and jig for hinges either - because they didn’t exist back in the day - they are wrong to use ?

A lot of negativity towards the new technology..
All the app is doing is a bit of calculation. Ideal for those with little grasp of basic maths but does it set the angles on the saw ? Does it cut the timber ? No it's just a glorified bit of working out which some can do in their head Orr on the back of a fag packet . I've nothing against new technology , it can make easier and sometimes quicker but if it robs us of the ability to think for ourselves and we become dependant upon it then I start to have a problem.
Router and jig for hinges , no I don't use them but then I probably don't hang enough to warrant one. Nail guns I have used but don't own one so don't use one on a regular basis , only if ones supplied but I find them a tad cumbersome on a roof.
Wow... that says it all ... you must be the only carpenter ? (who is on the tools currently ) in the UK who does not own a nail gun

unfortunately , whether you like it or not, time is money .. when I retire then I will be able to take my time and enjoy going back to basics but for now I’m going to use all the aids I can to make my life easier . Working out rafter lengths etc on a “fag packet “ isn’t going to pay my mortgage .

I have also got an app that calculators what size I need to cut my spacers for spindles = perfect every time ... does that make me less of a carpenter ? Am I going to hell ? Haha

Each to there own - like I said before I love hearing of all the different methods to do jobs having an OPEN MIND is key to success in my opinion , not just closing the door on an idea because that’s not the way you do it so it can’t possibly be right


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Re: Rafter plumb cut debate

Post by D4np » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:22 pm

I feel like we have gone a bit off topic and I have just recieved another e-mail from the app developer

Hello again Daniel,
Many thanks for bringing this confusing issue with the seat cut and plumb cut angles being the wrong way around on our roofing app, it turns out that the issue is related to the use of mitre saws which when they are in the default square cut position which gives you a 90 deg cut across your timber the indicator is on zero and not 90. So as you point out to get a 35 cut you have to set the indicator to 55 deg. Simple but How confusing is that. Please take a quick look at enclosed image.
Regards
buildcalcs


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Re: Rafter plumb cut debate

Post by Grendel » Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:29 am

D4np wrote:
Grendel wrote:
D4np wrote:As the saying goes - “you can’t teach an old dog new tricks “

If you think using a string line (blowing in the wind) , bevel (easily knocked) and a nail tacked on the wall plate (hope you plumb the nail ) etc Is more accurate than a app then good luck to you all . Obviously it works for you and that’s brilliant

Just because something didn’t exist when you “were a lad “ doesn’t make it bad alternative

Don’t suppose you use a nail gun , router and jig for hinges either - because they didn’t exist back in the day - they are wrong to use ?

A lot of negativity towards the new technology..
All the app is doing is a bit of calculation. Ideal for those with little grasp of basic maths but does it set the angles on the saw ? Does it cut the timber ? No it's just a glorified bit of working out which some can do in their head Orr on the back of a fag packet . I've nothing against new technology , it can make easier and sometimes quicker but if it robs us of the ability to think for ourselves and we become dependant upon it then I start to have a problem.
Router and jig for hinges , no I don't use them but then I probably don't hang enough to warrant one. Nail guns I have used but don't own one so don't use one on a regular basis , only if ones supplied but I find them a tad cumbersome on a roof.
Wow... that says it all ... you must be the only carpenter ? (who is on the tools currently ) in the UK who does not own a nail gun

unfortunately , whether you like it or not, time is money .. when I retire then I will be able to take my time and enjoy going back to basics but for now I’m going to use all the aids I can to make my life easier . Working out rafter lengths etc on a “fag packet “ isn’t going to pay my mortgage .

I have also got an app that calculators what size I need to cut my spacers for spindles = perfect every time ... does that make me less of a carpenter ? Am I going to hell ? Haha

Each to there own - like I said before I love hearing of all the different methods to do jobs having an OPEN MIND is key to success in my opinion , not just closing the door on an idea because that’s not the way you do it so it can’t possibly be right


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No one's saying using technology makes anyone less of a carpenter. When I first started "the" tool to have was a pump action screwdriver , all the guys on speed work had them but of course now they've largely been replaced by the ubiquitous cordless drill . Likewise any other power tool for that matter even though I still do a large percentage of my work by hand. Only this week a customer watched me cutting mitres by hand and commented on it. Other customers have praised the speed I do jobs or most of my working life in restoration speed wasn't the most important requirement.
What does give me a mmmm moment is the more social element to this. Supposedly schools are churning out ever brighter pupils yet those pupils are increasingly reliant upon tech to perform , whether it's spell checks or apps to do simple calculations. When the manufactures of an app come back with a statement that their app can be confusing and hasn't taken into account the settings on the tools they are meant to work with that also raises my eyebrows.
Still fair play to you if apps help you pay your mortgage. I brought my first house for cash at 27 and only ever had a mortgage for six months or so before it was all paid off so I wouldn't know if one could have helped me.
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Re: Rafter plumb cut debate

Post by D4np » Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:47 pm

Paid for a house in cash !? The tax man needs to be investigating you haha . Thats a lot of hand cut mitres ... I brought my 1st house at 18 for £127000 I suppose what you paid for your house wouldn’t even be enough for a young persons deposit on a house ! You should think yourself very lucky you wasn’t born 80’s on wards ! If you was then you too may have had to use all the “MOD CONS” available

No need for show boating in this thread

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Re: Rafter plumb cut debate

Post by Grendel » Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:02 pm

Just frugal really . My first wage in 1980 was £32 a week and the house was purchased ten years later at £46,000 . I'd just saved the money , father was a cvouncil worker and his ideas of not spending a pound when a penny would do more than likely rubbed off.
Perhaps you're right when you say if I was younger I'd be using more of the mod cons. It does touch on a subject that I've discussed before , although not necessarily on here ,and that in many ways we are our own worst enemies. It's become "accepted" that chippies and the like should provide a range of power tools and the like and in many cases use our own transport. Probably as a result of the fractured nature of employment in this industry . We make our bed and have to lie in it so to speak.
Perhaps it's down to my underlying frugality , if I can do a decent job without forking out for some fancy gizmo or tool then I will. Sometimes I suppose the ability to work without aids can work against you. For example I was sent to one job to be greeted by the site agent with the words " we've got a really awkward job , needs lots of working out , lots of head scratching , so I thought it'd be right up your street" . One example of my work can be seen in Birmingham , St Philips cathedral where we rebuilt the dome. The dome has four "ribs" that sit proud of the dome proper . I had to set those out , they taper and get shallower towards the top and it was impossible to see the whole thing , stand at the bottom and the bulge of the dome means you can't see the top and of course it was impossible to see from a distance as the dome was covered in scaffold. Probably an app would have helped me but I managed without.
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