DeWalt DW8001 RAS.

[Retired]

Hi,

Bron and I set off to Hull at 7 o'clock this morning; we were calling in on our best friends David & Jennifer in Cottingham; Bron would remain with Jennifer whilst David and I headed to Beverley to collect a very nice DeWalt DW8001 radial arm saw.

As usual my constant companion Blackie accompanied us putting down plenty of rain making for a miserable outward journey but we were in the comfort of our Yeti which I had rigged for machinery collection taking along plenty of rugs and tools including two full socket sets. We made good time and for a change I could activate the Yeti's cruise control because the motorways were quiet.

Dropping Bron off with Jennifer and after a quick brew David and I were on our way; David was an excellent navigator knowing the area well; I had arranged to collect the saw at 9 o'clock. Bang on 9 o'clock we pulled up outside the house in Beverley. The saw was some miles distant in a workshop so we tailed the owner in his big brand new Mercedes towards Bridlington? The workshop was part of a large barn. It was still drizzling but at least Blackie had relented somewhat as we walked into the barn. I asked to view the saw under power which posed a big problem; it promptly blew the fuse or tripped the breaker; the owner reassured us that the electricity supply into the barn left a lot to be desired and starting such a big (?) motor was always a challenge. Eventually with power back on I listened to a very sweetly sounding DeWalt and handed over the cash without hesitation.

David did a good job of helping to strip the saw and he also found an hand brush making good use of the brush to dust the saw down as I worked on the spanners. I didn't bother disconnecting the power lead from the starter to the motor; I simply severed it (Unplugged) and it won't be a problem to sort this out later; this saved playing around with small screws avoiding dropping one on the straw and sawdust strewn floor. The saw was stripped without problem; all the small items such as set screws and nuts were placed in the plastic box with the spanners; I didn't need to mark anything because reassembly will be easy for me but for anyone new to stripping machinery I strongly advise marking absolutely everything and if possible to take plenty of digital images. Due to the electrical problem and the Starter having a slightly damaged button the owner supplied a spare starter; as we were almost clear David remarked that nearby saw blades resting on a bench looked the right size wondering if these too were included; so I ended up with some decent blades as well.

I removed the radial arm end cap allowing the saw unit to slide free making for better and safer handling. As David continued with more cleanup and dismantling I started loading the Yeti. It didn't take long before we were on our way back to David's for welcome refreshments kindly put on by Jennifer. Our journey home was better in that Blackie had eased up and by the time we arrived home the sun was shining. After a quick brew I unloaded the Yeti carrying the saw into the garage and put the tools and rugs away. I'm unable to set up or to run this saw because I'm in the process of remodelling the garage into a full time workshop and firstly I need to resolve a slight water ingress problem but I'm looking forward to getting this saw running; it's an absolute beauty in top condition having had very little use indeed; a bonus too is the Instruction Manual and also the DeWalt Powershop Handbook.

I had tried unsuccessfully to obtain the DW8001 specifications from the web but these have to be paid for; now I have the saw and instructions I can say the saw is 2HP; single phase 240V; Motor RPM 2800; Motor shaft 20mm; Saw blade bore 30mm; Saw blade dia 300mm; Max cutting depth at 90 degrees 93mm; Max bevel cutting depth 60mm; Max cutting width up to 25mm is 460mm but with the rear board removed is 610mm. Weight 80kg.

I believe over 100 different operations can be carried out with one of these saws; I intend to design my new workshop around this saw. It will be wonderful to cut timber without the hassle of dragging out my DeWalt mitre saw or playing with the big Shopsmith. Many years ago I owned a huge very heavy Sagar radial arm saw but sold it on because it occupied so much space. I've started this thread in the hope it's of interest and will add to it once I put the saw into service because there is little information about these DW8001's on the web.

Christmas has come early and what a lovely morning collecting such a nice saw and visiting our best friends; some days do turn out well and this has been one of them.

Has any member got a DeWalt radial arm saw?

Kind regards, Col.

[Job and Knock]

I had tried unsuccessfully to obtain the DW8001 specifications from the web but these have to be paid for; now I have the saw and instructions I can say the saw is 2HP; single phase 240V; Motor RPM 2800; Motor shaft 20mm; Saw blade bore 30mm; Saw blade dia 300mm; Max cutting depth at 90 degrees 93mm; Max bevel cutting depth 60mm; Max cutting width up to 25mm is 460mm but with the rear board removed is 610mm. Weight 80kg.

I believe over 100 different operations can be carried out with one of these saws; I intend to design my new workshop around this saw. It will be wonderful to cut timber without the hassle of dragging out my DeWalt mitre saw or playing with the big Shopsmith.

OK, but by moving the fence to the full back position the saw blade will not park behind the fence making the saw potentially dangerous to the user in cross-cut mode, so maybe not a good idea. You may also have to fiddle about a bit with the multiple worktop pieces (4 or 5, from memory) to ensure that they are all level..... no thanks. This option is really only there to allow you to use the saw for rip sawing (inboard and outboard - so that's two of your hundred functions gone for a start) - surely the worst possible thing you can (knowingly) do with a radial arm saw, because TBH it's just so ruddy dangerous! In any case it really isn't that accurate in rip mode - I can get far better accuracy out of a portable site (table) saw at least when rip sawing, or with a corded rip saw and a home made guide. So all in all something which is the RAS hardly shines at.

In workshop use you need a longer table than the RAS provides as it comes, because the table is just too narrow (i.e. side to side of the arm in cross cut mode) for anything useful. This means that in the trade workshop it is still common to see RASs built-in to a very long bench with a fixed back fence (with or without ruler and flip-over stop system). It makes the RAS more useful, more accurate, better for repeatable multiple cuts but equally a lot less flexible.

In mitre mode there were often problems with lighter RASs. With DW's 10in range of years ago (e.g. the DW111, DW125, DW150, DW175, etc) the bases were so light that unless you invested time and money to re-engineer them, to beef them up, you'd never get repeatable mitre saw settings because the base would flex all over the place. And when it came to crosscutting mode again the darned thing wouldn't be cutting true. Some of the solutions I've seen to this included welding or bolting angle bracketry onto the base, cable-tieing the arm to the wall in a fixed crosscut position (actually to prevent the end of the arm from drooping towards the floor - but this approach meant that mieant that mitre cuts were out) and even welding-up a solid steel base to replace the OEM one. DW must have realised that there was a problem because they introduced mitre fences:

deWalt RAS mitre fence set 01 001 .JPG (182.87 KiB) Viewed 11425 times

designed in such a way that the saw arm can stay in the zero position whilst the quadrant fence moves. They are far more accuate than the guide on the saw arm, but the length of supported stuff you can cut on them is quite limited. So no use for architrave legs, but grand for small works such as picture frames

Other items in your list of 100 functions will no doubt include the ability to use a moulding head. Good luck finding one. The cut quality was never that great and the guarding doesn't meet modern safety requirements so DW removed them from the price list years ago. The item on the left is the guard for the moulding head:

deWalt RAS accessories 01 001 .JPG (6.98 KiB) Viewed 11425 times

The item on the right is a router holder, designed to turn your radial arm saw and plunge router together into an overhead router. It doesn't work well. You need to strip off the blade guard and the blade to install this doohickey and then you get a router mount, OK, but every time you use it you'll need to drill a new hole in the table top to install a guide pin (an absolute necessity if you want the full flexibility of an overhead pin router), but the head will potentially move out of line as the router is wound up and down - another process likely ti induce inaccuracy. Far better is to use the router and the fence as a sort of overhead spindle moulder. Pity that I can make a more accurate small router table for less money, then.

Other accessories included a sanding drum and a sanding disc. The problem there is that the RAS spindle runs far too fast for sanding, so they will clog quickly.

The areas an RAS excells in are:-

1 - Most RASs have a longer crosscut than even the larger SCMS saws

2 - Some RASs can accommodate trenching (or for those without the necessary English, "!dado") heads - PROVIDING that appropriately designed guards are available. Whilst DW used to list these they have not done so for some years

3 - The induction motors used in the RAS has more power than the universal motors usd in SCMSs

But this requires, ideally, a long fixed bench - circa 4 to 5 metres with the saw dead centre for even domestic-size joinery (and softwood comes in much longer lengths, remember) - and that becomes an issue in a tight workspace, such as a garage. This lack of versatility together with the advent in the early 1980s of the modern SCMS (from Elu, no less) is probably why the RAS has endured a long, slow decline in popularity over more than 30 years.

If you can set them up in a permanent workstation and can get the approprite guards and tooling then they make good crosscut and trenching machines. For all other tasks a double bevel SCMS set-up in the same way will run rings around them - lighter, faster, easier to use, better dust extraction, etc

Has any member got a DeWalt radial arm saw?

Still have a DW125 in storage. Had the DW111, DW1751, DW8101 and DW1460(?) in the past as well as a couple of Wadkins, so commente based on long personal experience.

Sorry to rain on your parade, Col, but IMHO the RAS is really only a one trick pony - for everything else the double bevel SCMS is more flexible not to mention portable. For me that wins hands down

[Dave54]

Bloke I used to know had a DeWalt RAS. Biggish machine it was. 12" blade IIRC. He was a time served carpenter / joiner, but had moved on to a different sort of job, and bought the machine new when he was doing up a house.
He reckoned it was excellent for cross cutting once set up, but unpleasant to use for ripping. He had a site saw as well for that.

I've never used one at all! Always managed with the sliding table on the Luna saw table for cross cutting the relatively small work I was doing.

[Retired]

Hi,

Many thanks J&K for your extremely useful and highly informative reply; I bow to your greater knowledge of radial arm saws and appreciate you taking so much time and trouble to add all the information. You certainly are not raining on my parade and I would never take it as such.

For my part; I've used radial arm saws for many years and yes only in cross cut mode which they excel at. About 25 years ago I owned a huge very heavy full cast iron Sagar RAS it being rather a monster with a big blade and long arm; I had chance of buying it and it was delivered by craned lorry; I moved it into the garage on steel rollers. Unfortunately the Sagar was just too big so eventually I sold it on; had I the space then I would have set it up properly and kept it. I'm unable to find a picture of the Sagar RAS but below is a picture of another Sagar showing just how substantially built these machines are.

Sagar..JPG (174.15 KiB) Viewed 11371 times

I too have operated Wadkin woodworking machinery including their top quality RAS's; these Wadkin saws can still be seen in many timber yards and I worked at Brook Motors who supplied all the Wadkin motors so I know the motors were always of the best quality. These Wadkin RAS's still command high prices.

http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/wadk ... 49772.html



Above is a Wadkin set up I've not seen before; dust extraction is conspicuous by its absence and the saws being foot operated would be suicidal for a novice to even go near. I used to own a beauty of a chop saw it too being a very heavy duty Wadkin; I converted it to single phase whilst fully restoring it and it served me well for many years in fact I still miss it and is the reason I'm now going the RAS route. This Wadkin chop saw would also be highly dangerous for a novice to use it being pedal operated leaving both hands free to be severed? Here's a picture; please note the foot pedal.

Wadkin chop saw. (1).jpg (452.47 KiB) Viewed 11371 times

Before buying this DW RAS I did a lot of homework and understand the saw's shortcomings just as you rightly describe J&K in fact I couldn't agree with you more. However now that I have the full garage to remodel into a decent workshop I can arrange the RAS half way along the main wall the wall being 22' long; this will once and for all take care of my cross cutting needs giving both speed and accuracy especially when multiples are needed which can be cut against a length stop; at Brook's I was in charge of the timber department and I set up the big Wadkin RAS to accept sawn pallet timber six lengths at a time; I designed a heavy duty stop and it was amazing just how quickly we could cut the pallet sections using this method; the Wadkin was hooked up to a huge dust extractor it having a 25hp motor but the extractor also served the other machinery. I also designed a very heavy steel pallet making table allowing assorted 2 way pallets to be made at speed with counter balanced nail guns; two guys worked full time making pallets and packing crates; I used to love going into the timber department to get my daily fix of the smell. Also in the department were Wadkin huge bandsaw; large table saw and square chisel morticer.

So far I've only glanced through the DeWalt Handbook and instructions. I will take great care in setting up and aligning this RAS because as you rightly say J&K it is so very important to get this spot on; any saw engaging the timber on the upward rotation is bad news and this is why riving knives are installed on circular saws; on an RAS it would be even more dangerous to have the blade out of alignment.

I've never attempted ripping on a RAS but I know it can be done as per the DeWalt instructions; I agree this isn't the best and certainly not the easiest method but it can be done although I'll look into this in more detail as the workshop evolves. I only know about the "backboards" J&K because I noticed reference to them in the instructions in fact I left these with the seller being totally ignorant of their use?

All kinds of operations can be carried out on this RAS but as I say I'm only aware of them but never actually used any of them; I think it fair to say that no one machine will do every job perfectly; only dedicated machines can do this (I'm discussing home workshops not the big industrial CNC machinery). I owned a wonderful Startrite Robland combination woodworking machine for 16 years only recently selling it. This was a 3 phase 415V machine in scrap condition when I bought it but I fully rebuilt it; not having 3 phase laid on at the time I re-connected the three motors from Star to Delta and added a single start capacitor and a single run capacitor allowing it to run in all functions from our domestic 240V single phase; this reduced the maximum power but it was still ample for my needs; I also added full dust extraction. Although this Startrite was so wonderful it still had many limitations; ripping was limited to around 8" wide; the sliding table took up a lot of space whilst installed; the slot morticer was seldom used as was the moulding function in fact I removed the slot morticer only installing it as required but it was a pain of job. The saw table wasn't level with the planer tables; the surface planer and thicknesser at 10" wide were used a lot and I junked the poor power feed grafting on a reduction gearbox with its own single phase motor. This Startrite cost £1,000 when I bought it and after 16 years of use I sold it on for more than I paid for it.

I then bought an American Shopsmith multi function machine which I've spent time on stripping and changing all the headstock bearings and ensuring the two drive belts were OK; this will handle full 8' x 4' sheet material but having now used it for sheet material I really do dislike it; the design means that the saw table is very high which is fine for light cutting but for safe handling of big sheet material it fails miserably because both infeed and outfeed tables/support would be needed for safety; just too much hassle and a disappointment; it wasn't cheap either.

I don't expect my RAS to be all singing all dancing but I think for my needs it will prove adequate. As to mitre cutting using my RAS I've already got this well sorted; when I owned the big Wadkin chop saw this was cross cut only but I quickly sussed out how to add wooden guides for angle cutting; I trimmed the end of a length of 2" x 4" planed softwood at such an angle the tip of the point could be aligned with the blade at the fence and clamped this using a pair of set screws and wing nuts with washers against a big plastic set square costing nothing; it's very interesting to see the pictures of the mitre fences you kindly supplied J&K; my fixed wooden guides did the same job but were not adjustable. I think this will be the method I adopt again for mitre cutting on my RAS; I also have a DeWalt compound mitre saw so this isn't a problem at all. Do I need moulding heads etc; I doubt it; I had the moulder with big Whitehill moulding blocks on the Robland and only used these for long runs; it simply wasn't worth the time and trouble to set up for a few pieces of moulding. Drum sanding; again something I seldom need. The reason I bought the RAS is mostly for cross cutting.

I also have two circular saws; a big Skilsaw for heavy stuff and a smaller Parkside for dimensioning big sheet material; I also have lots of other kit like 5 routers; lathes and bandsaw etc so I'm pretty well covered as to my needs in both wood and metalwork.

It's possible RAS's are now being phased out because of the modern portable mitre saws which will quickly adjust from cross cut to compound mitre cuts but I still want to set up my RAS making it a fixed machine immediately ready for work without the need of setting up a mitre saw on its roller stand. I can also add cupboards above and below the RAS tables; I'll add details as the workshop evolves.

Thanks Dave54; you've mentioned the most important thing; this is what each person actually requires; hand tools can do the job of power tools but takes longer so for an hobbyist just owning hand tools will be sufficient but for speed then obviously power tools and bigger machinery can't be beaten; I derive as much please out of playing around with my kit as in using it; I'm not under any pressure to complete a job so can relax and enjoy what I do for the sake of doing it.

I've seen lots of owners comments regarding RAS's and they are mixed from loving to loathing so it's a case of deciding on what is wanted then handing over the money; had I bought a Wadkin RAS it would have cost a lot more but for what I paid for this excellent DeWalt 12" RAS I'm more than happy; I'm sure it will shake hands with me and be a good friend.

Kind regards, Col.

[Job and Knock]

Hi Collin

I'm reasonably familiar with Sagar, having served my time in a shop where we had mainly Sagar and Bursgreen gear. Did you know that Bursgreen became part of Sagar in the late 1940s and subsequently merged with Wadkin in 1954? We had a Sagar crosscut (nobody ever called them RASs because they weren't - the motor couldn't be spun to make a rip cut) used for crosscutting, trenching and shaping sash joggles with a shaping head (an utterly terrifying process to me at that time). It look a lot like this Wadkin example:

Wadkin Crosscut Saw 001 01.jpg (8.69 KiB) Viewed 11360 times

It was the Suez crises of 1957 which finally killed-off the old Sagar factory in Water Lane, Halifax and it closed it's doors in December, 1957. Bursgreen, who by that time had two factories, the original one at Colne in Lancashire and a newer one at Houghton-le-Spring in Co. Durham went from strength to strength. The Wadkin Bursgreen BRA RAS was their anglicised copy of the original American deWalt heavy duty radial saws of the 1940s and 50s - a machine which still exists in the form of the Original Saw Company's RAS. Original Saw took over DWs American RAS operation some years back but didn't change the design, which fundamentally dates back yto the 1930s:

Original Saw 12in RAS 001 01.JPG (32.64 KiB) Viewed 11363 times

Similar to the original 1950s to 1970s BRA, isn't it? Of course one really good feature of the Wadkin RASs is that they incorporate replaceable hardened steel bar running rails as opposed to the modern deWalt system of machining the carraige tracks directly into the arm casting. This can wear unevenly over time with heavy use and the only solution is a new arm casting. Something for any potential purchasers of second deWalt RASs to be aware of as it can be an expensive gotcha.

The dual saw set-up you show isn't all that common, but larger dual saws, operated by pnematic cylinders were sold by Wadkin and later on deWalt (incorporating the heavier industrial saws up to 20in blades) as truss-cutting stations for cutting the timber elements of roof trusses. These days, because of safety (mainly blade guarding) that market has by and large changed over to using upcut saws with full blade guarding instead, such as this (admittedly) oldish Robinson EO/T roof truss saw:

Robinson EO_T Roof Truss Saw 001 01.jpg (37.4 KiB) Viewed 11363 times

As an aside, nearly 60 years since the demise of Sagar a roof truss manufacturing firm took over part of the old Sagar works a couple of years back.

The Wadkin WK/T (?) snipper saw you had is an interesting saw. Designed for high volume production lengthing the foot control, a stirrup or pedal to operate the downcut mechanically, was pretty lethal in inexperienced hands! Tread on the pedal with you hands in the wrong place..... Hence, presumably, their demise.

You say it's "possible RAS's are now being phased out because of the modern portable mitre saws which will quickly adjust from cross cut to compound mitre cuts" - but the reality is that there are now a lot of commercial workshops where you won't see a radial arm saw at all these days. It's been that way since the 1990s and the paucity of new industrial models on the market seems to bear this out. It's not just the speed of change-over, it's also cost, better dust extraction and gaurding as well (plus not many shops see the need to trench any longer - there are other techniques whish are faster and safer). Many shops I've seen incorporate a double bevel SCMS into a long bench to undertake the many of the same work a RAS would have previously done.

I'm not completely anti. If I were I wouldn't have retained an old DW125 for the future, but if/when it gets set-up it will be strictly for crosscutting and trenching. For all other functions in the RAS range of capabilities there are safer, faster and more accurate ways of doing things. And trying some things on a RAS, such as ripping, are just plain bonkers to my mind


Edit: Just a thought about portability - Wadkin did offer portable versions of their cross cut saws in the late 1920s. Fancy one like this?

Wqdkin CC Portable Model 001 01.JPG (55.89 KiB) Viewed 11359 times

[Retired]

Hi,

Thanks J&K for adding so much additional information. I believe your background is in woodwork so as such you'll leave me well behind because my background is mechanical engineering; you'll be familiar with all the woodworking machinery companies whereas I'm just an enthusiastic guy picking up lots of information over the last 50 years on all manner of subjects. I detested woodworking at school failing in the subject unaided by a useless teacher whom I disliked with a passion.

Marrying Bron in 1976 and now having the responsibilities of being homeowners (huge mortgage) I was now faced with lots of repairs which we couldn't afford to get someone in to sort out so since then it's been a case of "need to know" to the point now where I can tackle anything. I think it fair to describe myself above average but I'm no expert on woodworking; I can discuss woodworking at length though having gained a lot of knowledge on the subject and I've owned some very desirable machinery. Being a mechanical engineer I can easily pull machines apart to repair/restore them putting this into practice at home where I've bought lots of scrap machines and fully restored them.

As stated I was in charge of the woodworking department at Brooks but I was also in charge of home trade despatch and export packing. I was taught as an apprentice safe working practices around machinery so I felt instantly at home with even the largest woodworking machine understanding the many dangers involved. Possibly my training went quite a bit further than normal because I worked underground in a coal mine.

Anyone buying any machine with the name Wadkin on it is assured of a top quality machine unless it has been badly abused. Dominion in Halifax too was a top brand in its day; at one point I owned a very large 3 phase Dominion woodturning lathe. All these old machines were made of cast iron ensuring longevity; a handful of spanners and a couple of screwdrivers were all the kit needed to take them apart.

The big Sagar radial arm saw I had the saw head was running on 1/2" dia steel bars there being two of these attached to the arm; common ball bearings provided the traction; all very simple indeed just as it should be wherever possible. What a shame all these old manufacturers are no more; Wadkin continues but now I see taken over and running from Nottingham. Whilst at Brooks we supplied motors on a very regular basis to the main Wadkin Green Lane Works in Leicester. I've handled thousands of Brook Motors going to places like Wadkin; Startrite and Bursgreen (both sites).

Even Brook Motors are now manufactured abroad the Brook headquarters Empress Works where I worked is no more than a distribution centre with a small team doing modifications only. What a come down from the days when I think some 3,500 were employed at its height; when I started at Brooks in 1976 I think 1,600 were employed; possibly now around 60 but I'm unsure.

http://www.wadkin.com/company

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=wadki ... BRkQsAQIGg

All these old machines were made to last; they ran year in year out without the slightest trouble but things have changed a great deal and not always for the better;

I like the Wadkin "Portable" you've kindly posted the picture of; I wonder if I could squeeze one of these into my new workshop?

Unfortunately J&K people like us with the knowledge of such old machinery are becoming increasingly rare; CNC now rules and if something isn't bristling with electronics modern kids aren't interested?

I've a couple of old books somewhere kindly given to me as a gift by a purchasing manager at Wadkin (Nick Stone?). I'll dig them out because I've not looked at them for twenty years.

Kind regards, Col.

[Retired]

Hi,

I've finally got around to sorting out my Dewalt RAS. As expected I'm having a few problems; I have the owners handbooks but not a proper manual. Inspecting the yoke four top bearings all felt quite rough but three responded to some TLC and lubrication the fourth though needs replacing. These are special bearings and even the cheapest I could find cost £26 for a single bearing which I've ordered and paid for.

I need to gain access by removing the slotted pin which has a keyway in its end but it's incredibly tight and I don't want to use excessive force so I walked away from it today but I will get the pin out one way or another. The slotted pin can be seen in the center of the four special roller bearings.

When I collected the saw I removed the arm end cap and the saw unit slid out without fuss; however when I tried to reinstall the saw unit two bearings entered the tracks OK then suddenly it stopped dead with metal to metal contact sounding very solid indeed; it was the lock which locks the unit to the arm and I could heck as suss out how the thing could possibly go back on. In the end I placed the unit on the bench and inspected it closely using a torch; I turned the plastic thumbscrew fully in and fully out without making the slightest difference; I had located the slot on the arm but the unit simply refused to slide back on. This lock though appeared to be made in two parts so what was its secret? Nothing for it but to completely remove this lock and it was tight but at last with gentle levering it was in my hands where I could closely examine it; sure enough it was indeed in two pieces; the outer had been bored to accept a short length of round bar stock plunger fashion; with my usual bad luck during transit this plunger had completely closed the opening it couldn't have moved to the fully open position could it oh no. Once the unit is in place on the arm the thumbscrew if screwed in pushes the plunger against the arm thereby it locks the saw unit on the arm; easy as usual once known. Anyway the pictures show better but it's now information for anyone else suffering the same problem.

I asked to hear the saw under power when I bought it and at power up it blew a fuse/tripped the breaker but the seller informed me that it was due to poor electrics in the barn and this size of motor was overloading the electrics; the saw sounded good though. Today I found out why the saw was for sale; the plastic handle is in two halves; the halves were slightly apart as seen to the right in the first picture so I thought I'd better sort this out because sawdust could get in and cause untold damage; I quickly discovered why the fuse blew; the machine screws securing the on/off switch to the handle are too long; so long in fact one had completely pierced both the live and neutral insulation as seen in the picture; good job the saw was well earthed otherwise it could have proved lethal. I'll sort this problem and ensure the screws cannot come into contact with the wires in future. The handle hadn't closed correctly because of a missing nut which I'll replace from stock.

Normally I'd completely restore this saw but I have so many other jobs I wish to do so I'll do the necessary work to get the saw in good working order then I can use it.

So far so good; there is little information on the web about this saw so I thought I'd add these few details.

Kind regards, Col.

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[Retired]

Hi,

A bit more information. I need to replace one of the yoke top guide bearings #3 these being specials; I've ordered and paid for the bearing here;

https://www.toolsandpartsdirect.co.uk/s ... saw-type-1

I've endured a most frustrating time trying to remove the big pin #47. Clamp #33 locks the pin #47 from turning the clamp having a lug which locates in the pins keyway; this pin #47 is very special in that one end has its cap which has a screwdriver slot; the other end has a socket on axis to accept an hex key but it is also threaded externally and has a keyway; the pin can be removed by using a large screwdriver because it is locked from turning; the locking handle is threaded to engage the pin end but the locking handle has only a small travel arc before fouling the yoke so on face value this pin is not removable?

Initially I tried to unscrew the pin after grinding down a power hacksaw blade to fully engage the screwdriver slot then with a movable spanner I exerted moderate force but the pin refused to turn; I'm experienced enough to know how much pressure to apply so now I spent ages trying to remove this wayward pin. This morning I went into the garage determined to remove this pin. To cut a long story short the way to do it is to bend the clamp #33 away from its locating lug on the yoke; it's this clamp prevents the pin #47 from turning; it straddles a lug cast into the yoke and at its bore it has a lug which engages the pin. Without a proper workshop manual for this RAS I had to suss this out the hard way but a novice could very easily destroy the yoke casting and or severely damage the pin by using excessive force; the clamp was destroyed and the pin suffered light damage; the pin has suffered light damage to a couple of threads adjacent to the keyway; fortunately I had the sense not to use brute force otherwise the pin would be rendered useless; I've cleaned up the damage gently using a junior hacksaw and both pin and handle now engage freely.

Those trying to remove the pin will encounter exactly the same problems I encountered so now the information is here to help. I don't wish to use the same pin locking method because it could lead to severe damage in the hands of a novice; I'll give it some thought and if I can dream up a better solution I'll post the details. I'm including more pictures in the hope any bit of information will be of help to someone.

Since finally removing the pin and looking at the parts diagram I now wonder if removing the handle end #31 would shorten the handle sufficiently to let the handle rotate within the yoke? I'll check this and report back?

Kind regards, Col.

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[Dave54]

Interesting about the pin Col. I don't think I've come across anything keyed quite like that before. It's almost as if they don't want it pulled apart.
Those big set screws with a narrow slot always give me pause for thought. Even without the key, they always seem to be tight, and come undone with a "snap". As you say a bit of experience in what the breaking point is likely to be helps!
I've never seen a "proper" tool for undoing them. (Assuming there is one) Somewhere I've got a filed down piece of tool steel made as an adaptor for one on something or other. Victorian engineers seemed fond of them. I have a large, "London pattern" flat bladed screwdriver about 2 feet long that usually shifts them. Mind you, that's Victorian engineering in itself!

[Retired]

Hi,

Thanks Dave54. Yes it was a challenge to remove the pin; Mr DeWalt really did go to town dreaming this pin up. Whilst the pin is in position it's impossible to know what it is like just by looking at it unless x ray eyes are used; with a screwdriver slot at one end and an hex socket at the other end I wondered if the pin was in two parts? What was the keyway for; was the handle keyed to the pin? Why the big segmented locking washer; I'm not surprised these pins are sold out and no longer available; many owners I'm sure will have rendered them useless as they tried desperately to remove it?

I've not seen a London Pattern screwdriver for years; they used to be commonplace and as you say in big sizes; for those who have never heard of or seen one of these London Pattern screwdrivers here is a link;

http://progress-is-fine.blogspot.co.uk/ ... ttern.html

I always associated this type of screwdriver with old tradesmen who wore aprons but then I go back a ways myself.

As you say Dave54 this kind of large slotted head screw releases with a loud snap; usually just on the point where so much pressure is applied it's sure to strip the head off; I find this also often occurs whilst removing very tight socket machine screws. Your two foot long screwdriver would be perfect for releasing the bottom hose clip on a car radiator; it's many years since I worked on a car but somehow these clips were always installed with the slot uphill.

My explanation regarding the pin is rather long winded but hopefully will be of use to anyone who finds themselves faced with trying to remove one; I did consider removing the plastic grip from the handle to see if the metal part would then be short enough to clear the yoke; it did look as if it would still be too long; I now wonder if the plastic grip was installed after the pin? I'm playing around with the saw again after dinner.

Kind regards, Col.

[dewaltdisney]

You can get tremendous torque on those long screwdrivers. I think they build up a torsional spring energy. I had one that was great for painted over door hinge screws, it never failed to shift them. Somewhere along the line it got lent, lost or mislaid but I cannot find it now.

That pin was a horror story Colin, I admire your perseverance and resourcefulness in removing it.

DWD

[Dave54]

Cheers for that Col
http://progress-is-fine.blogspot.co.uk/ ... ttern.html
Mine's like the one at the top.
It's an ex WD one. It's got the arrow and "1945" on it.
My dad gave it me. I can actually remember him buying it at an "Army and Navy" type surplus place.
Not ever been used a lot by either of us, but it's useful occasionally.
They must have still been making them up until the late 60s / early 70s because dad had a new posh one from somewhere with varnished handle etc.
I'm sure somebody will find your explanation here useful Col. It might well prevent someone breaking something to get that pin out.

[Retired]

Hi,

Thanks DWD; yes the pin was indeed an horror story and it continued a bit this afternoon when I resumed work on this RAS. One of the first things I checked was the length of the handle; with its plastic grip fitted it definitely fouled the yoke and it looked as though it would still foul the yoke if I removed the plastic grip; if the handle could be fully turned then the pin could easily be released. I double checked this afternoon is case I had jumped to conclusions and made a glaring error of judgement. I initially tried to unscrew the plastic grip thinking it would be threaded but it simply revolved; it proved to be nothing more than a push fit and was reasonably easy to pull free; the picture shows the handle still fouling the yoke much to my relief; I wonder how DeWalt installed this pin because it's a downright pain and one huge puzzle to remove it without any information; the casting has a peg which engages with the segmented locking washer; this peg in protrusion is roughly the length of the thickness of the locking washer; what if a forked wedge was inserted straddling the peg to elevate the locking washer allowing the locking washer to fully turn without being arrested by the peg? Just an idea but it could possibly work then once the handle was in position the wedge could be withdrawn allowing the locking washer to engage the peg. This pin removal will prove a nightmare to anyone without mechanical skills. Why have a screwdriver slot in one end of the pin and a hex socket in the other end of the pin; the picture shows the crude but very effective tool I made to fully engage the screwdriver slot; this is merely a short length of power hacksaw blade which on thickness was a perfect fit all I had to do was to notch the ends on the grinder. One other way of removing the handle would be to cut it free and substitute it with a nut; what a problem this pin really is.

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When I bought this RAS I thought it to be in top condition having been little used; the sellers description; in our garage though under closer inspection this saw has seen lots of use and most of its life in cross cut mode only; all the control handles where locked up and very stiff indeed; I've taken my time to free them all off; just a polite word to most woodworkers who use machinery an oil can is a truly wonderful asset but every machine I've restored I doubt has seen lubrication since the machine left the factory. Electrically the saw could have proved lethal and mechanically arms like Popeye's would be needed to operate the stiff controls; this kind of machine is totally unacceptable to me and I refuse to run such a machine. So nothing for it but to postpone the garage makeover until I sort this saw out to my liking however long it takes or however much it costs.

The Motor.

I'm not subjecting this saw to a comprehensive restoration but I'm now progressing well with the mechanical side just waiting for the special guide bearing to arrive. This afternoon I've spent a couple of interesting hours pulling the motor to bits; a job I've done many times previously.

I can't stress enough that to be rough and use excessive force on any part of this saw is going to bring tears to eyes when the part is destroyed; so it is with the motor; the motor has flimsy castings which won't respond well to abuse and these motors I'm sure will be very expensive so before attacking the motor with hammer and prising with screwdrivers I suggest a gently gently approach treating it with utmost respect.

This motor is Italian and rated at 2 hp; there are very few details on the nameplate; FLA (Full load amps) isn't stated. The plastic fan cover comes away easy with the removal of a couple of screws then the fun starts; the outer of the blade flange came away without fuss; the inner drive flange succumbed to a gentle tapping with a dead blow hammer. The fan can be removed once the locking grub screw is released. Now to remove the two end covers to gain access to the bearings; wonderful design in having the hex heads of the long threaded rods deep inside the end cover; neither a spanner nor a socket can be engaged leaving a nut spinner or box spanner to release them; these are 8 mm spanner size. I have the garage upside down with many of my tools in plastic boxes so I spent ages trying to find something to fit these rods; eventually I selected an 8 mm box spanner but with my usual bad luck the 8 mm end was well rounded; to overcome this I inserted an 8 mm nut then nipped the box spanner flats onto the nut using the engineering vice; now I had a box spanner; had I been stuck I would have made a new box spanner from steel round bar stock.

With the rods out a few taps with the dead blow hammer released the non drive end cover allowing it to be prised clear with a couple of plain screwdrivers but please beware; pushing the screwdrivers into the motor too far is likely to damage the field windings; another nice trap for the unwary is that this end cover also has a machine screw securing it from within the terminal box; the terminal box lid has to be removed; lovely way for a novice to break the casting; as I keep stressing a great deal of care and patience is required when stripping machinery. With the machine screw removed the end cover came away without a fight leaving the bearing on the shaft as expected.

Now I could gently tap the shaft end with the dead blow hammer and this pushed out the drive end cover complete with rotor. Again care is needed the drive end casting will not stand abuse; it took time but eventually I resorted to cutting two lengths of softwood at over 8" long to support the drive end cover allowing the rotor to hang between the two pieces as seen in the picture; many times a gentle tap with a dead blow hammer will release the bearing from the end cover; not with my luck though in this case and to use a puller could also destroy the casting so I stood back to give it some thought. The aluminium end cover would heat up much quicker than the bearing and shaft so with this in mind I pulled out my DeWalt heat gun and high setting played the heat all around the outer bearing area; I didn't overdo this heating but it was too hot to touch; now with it mounted on the softwood it tapped clear without fuss or causing damage.

Pulling the bearings was straightforward using a bearing puller with the rotor gently nipped in the engineering vice between bits of timber to protect the rotor.

The bearings are a very common size being non drive end #6202 RS and drive end #6204RS ( RS denotes rubber seals). The bearings were actually in good condition but whilst the yoke unit and motor are separated I'm taking the opportunity of replacing the bearings which cost little but a job well worth doing for a little extra time and effort.

I dislike doing this kind of work whilst the garage is undergoing a full remodeling but I have little choice.

Kind regards, Col.

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[Retired]

Hi,

I've just ordered and paid for the two motor bearings at Engineers Mate Ltd through eBay; total cost is £7.73 but this includes £1.50 for next day delivery; both are SKF which I like and trust; a very small price to pay to ensure years of trouble free running; why wait until a motor complains then burns out; a bit of TLC works wonders.

One point worth mentioning and it's very important; I never ever try to memorize where parts are removed from whilst stripping a machine or motor; a simple sketch or using a marker pen has a better memory than I have; when I remove end covers from a motor I either use a centre punch and add two dimples on one end three dimples the other end or as today simply use a marker pen and draw short lines across the joints; to assemble just align the dimples or lines; I do this with all parts removed as much as possible but I also draw a quick sketch if needed; this only takes seconds but can save hours of frustration later. If I strip say a gearbox; gears/spacers and thrust washers etc can be tied in a loop of string to keep them in order; machine screws of different length can be pushed through a bit of card in correct order noting where the start is. I've done lots of such work without the proper parts diagram but a great deal of care is called for; it's very easy to make a simple mistake. I like fully adjusted well oil kit; it always shakes hands with me.

Kind regards, Col.

[Retired]

Hi,

I've not done much work on the saw today because each time I go near it I find more problems; the person wiring this saw must have had suicidal tendencies; a DOL (direct on line) starter was hooked up to the saw when I collected the saw so rather than messing around disconnecting I simply severed one of the cables to the motor saving losing small electrical screws in straw and sawdust. Out of curiosity I've opened up the starter to check connections; I was removing the short severed cable and unscrewed the earth clamp to find earth continuity lost due to the clamp bridging the insulation leaving the conducting wire floating; this is inside the starter so really nice to know not a bit of the entire saw was earthed. The motor connections were to L1 & L3. The full load amps are not stamped on the nameplate which I needed to check the starter was correct but at 12A it is fine.

The special yoke guide bearing arrived today so this is now installed; this new bearing is simply stamped 6202; nothing else on it and this bearing is rubber sealed which is an improvement over the original metal shielded bearings. Anyone in future ordering a 6202 bearing for this application will find it's the wrong bearing; a 6202 is a very standard and widely used bearing; these guide bearings are specials.

I'll keep doing a bit of work on the saw; once the motor bearings arrive I'll reassemble the motor. I've tidied the garage a bit today clearing a bench allowing me to work in comfort.

Kind regards, Col.

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