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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:07 am 
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Hello peeps,

I recently purchased 2 x 'Xpelair C4TR' extractor fans. They are the timer type which stay on for a predefined amount of time after the lighting is switched off. I have already fitted one in the Bathroom and this works fine, the other one I have yet to fit in the Kitchen as the existing wiring is different to that in the Bathroom.

The first fan for the Bathroom went straight in as it already had the required wiring from the timer fan I was replacing, i.e.,

    L to L
    N to N
    Switched L to Switched L (indicated as 'T' for timer in the information sheet circuit diagram. Pic1)

This fan turns on when the bathroom light is turned on and it turns off after a predefined amount of time after the light is switched off. So far so good...

The existing fan in the Kitchen, however, just has a Live and Neutral to power it. It is simply turned on and off via a fused spur switch (Pic2 & 3).

The fused spur is connected to the ring circuit with L & N feed in and then out to the next mains socket. Both L and N load to the existing fan are switched. I think my circuit diagram is correct (Pic 4) although it was a 13A fuse which I found in the unit and not 5A as in my diagram.

Unlike the bathroom, I do not want this fan wiring to the kitchen lighting circuit. I want it to be activated via a momentary-type switch (in the existing spur location) i.e., push a button and the fan spins for, say, 30 minutes then turns off.

Obviously, I need a permanent L and N to power the fan once the momentary switch has been released but I would like to ask a few questions before I continue with this project...

Q1. Am I right in assuming the fuse in the fused spur is 13A because it is inline with the ring circuit feed and not the fan load? This fuse has not been changed since the property was built and will be what the electrician originally fitted. I should have done a continuity test on it while I had it removed from the wall, but I want to avoid repeatedly removing it before I continue the project.

Q2. I have already tried a mock-up of my project and it works as anticipated i.e., permanent L and N to the fan, then made and released a connection between L feed and T on the fan (Pic5). The fan turns on then off after the predefined time but can anyone see a flaw in this project which I have not seen?

The only things I seem to require are a permanent L to the fan and the correct type momentary switch. I have plenty of 1.5mm Red solid core for the permanent live but I would need to do a bit more research for the correct type of momentary switch.

Thank you for any help and apologies for the long post!


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:40 pm 
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1) No

2) Click here

You also need a patress / back box, your choice, but they are on the same page as the switch

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:28 pm 
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Q1 I am not sure what you mean by "Am I right in assuming the fuse in the fused spur is 13A because it is inline with the ring circuit feed and not the fan load? "

The fuse is between the ring and the fan. It's probably 13A because the electrician never changed it for the correct one.

Q2 You have on picture 5 not provided proper isolation for the fan. You should isolate the permanent live, the switched live and the neutral. To do this you would need to keep the switched fused spur and add an extra switch to control the fan. Especially as you need a 5A fuse.


I presume that you are aware that you will have to replace the cable from the fused spur to the fan :wink:? It could be messy.

There is one other option (no idea if you will like it) that I am aware of that might do what you want and you would have the job done in minutes with no mess at all.

Swap the fused spur for a Time Guard FBT4 and link the T and L at the fan. You then get to choose the time the fan runs for (1/4, 1/2, 1 or 2 hours)

http://www.timeguard.com/media/2842/FBT ... issue3.pdf

Good luck with it.



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:50 pm 
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OnlyMe wrote:

Q2 You have on picture 5 not provided proper isolation for the fan. You should isolate the permanent live, the switched live and the neutral. To do this you would need to keep the switched fused spur and add an extra switch to control the fan. Especially as you need a 5A fuse.


One way of doing this and not adding an extra back box or pattress is using Click Minigrid (you still need 3 cores up to the fan)

It could be done with a 3 module Click switch. One module for a 5A fuse, one module (DP switch) to provide isolation from live and neutral and one module as a momentary switch.

From here

https://scolmore.com/_pdfs/minigrid.pdf

4 parts

PRW403 (basically an empty 3 gang light switch)
MD004WH (the reactive switch)
MD018WH (the double pole switch)
MD07WH (the fuse module)

The Click minigrid stuff is excellent.



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:51 pm 
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Thank you 'someone-else' and 'OnlyMe' for your replies :-)

OnlyMe wrote:
The fuse is between the ring and the fan. It's probably 13A because the electrician never changed it for the correct one.
I knew that the fan would not be 13A which is why I marked the fuse in my original photoshop circuit diagrams as 5A. I subsequently took the fuse out to check and it was 13A! This confused me slightly and made me wonder if it was the fan it was actually protecting, however, the electrician never changing it for the correct one makes sense.

OnlyMe wrote:
You have on picture 5 not provided proper isolation for the fan. You should isolate the permanent live, the switched live and the neutral. To do this you would need to keep the switched fused spur and add an extra switch to control the fan. Especially as you need a 5A fuse
Yes, this was my original plan which I am still considering. I've updated my circuit diagram (Pic6) to isolate the L SL and N. Does this look correct?

The only down side to this, as you have pointed out, is that I would have an extra (momentary) switch. Being a bit of a perfectionist, it's not quite as 'seamless' as I would like but something I am still considering. Do you know of a fused spur with momentary switch built in? Alternatively, I could just fit the momentary switch nearer the fan so it doesn't become cluttered with boxes at the spur. More work involved but the effort might be worth it.

The style of lighting switch in my apartment is 'Ultraflat Collection: Polished Brass' and ideally I would want to match the kitchen to this theme. I already have a momentary switch in the living room to operate an existing electronic dimmer. This is the style that I would be looking to match:
https://www.varilight.co.uk/configurato ... code=XFVM1

A slightly better option might be to have an unswitched spur and a momentary switch at the side of it? It seems logical to remove the switch since this was only used to turn the existing fan on and off. 1 less switch to confuse people!

I hear what you are saying about the 'Time Guard FBT4' and this looks like it would work flawlessly but it is not quite the 'elegant solution' I am looking for.

The Minigrid stuff looks interesting. Although it would not match the existing style of the flat, choosing a deliberately contrasting style might work, and I like the idea of 1 modular box with fuse, switch and momentary switch all in one. In fact, does it really need the switch? As mentioned above, the only reason it currently has a switch is because the existing fan needs it to turn it on and off. How's about 2 modules: Fuse and momentary switch?

Thanks for your replies and interest in my post.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:17 pm 
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Your new picture looks fine and much safer :wink:. Adding the Varilight stuff does limit your choices (and I appreciate that you want to continue the theme throughout the apartment). A pity you had not heard of

https://scolmore.com/_pdfs/definity.pdf

before you started :sad:

You could however with the new drawing, as you said, put the momentary switch closer to the fan and just swap the fused spur for a Varilight one.

As to your last question. Without the switch how would you isolate the L and N?



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:37 pm 
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OnlyMe wrote:
You could however with the new drawing, as you said, put the momentary switch closer to the fan and just swap the fused spur for a Varilight one.
I think this is the best option at the moment.

OnlyMe wrote:
As to your last question. Without the switch how would you isolate the L and N?
Ring main RCB? The only reason I asked is because I know fused spurs are available without a switch for fixed appliances. Is an extractor fan not considered a fixed appliance?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:45 pm 
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Bat 'n' Ball wrote:
RCB?
Edit: Sorry, I meant RCD!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:06 pm 
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Bat 'n' Ball wrote:
Bat 'n' Ball wrote:
RCB?
Edit: Sorry, I meant RCD!


I knew what you meant. Mind you RCCB would have been fine :-)

The fixed appliances you see with unswitched fused spurs are usually fire alarms, intruder alarms, local lighting from a ring etc



Fans do require total (and local, not at the CU) isolation. It's quite common to see fire and intruder alarms with a fuse and a key switch in the same faceplate (the keyswitch is a DP one that isolates L&N) and it stops people accidentally switching off the power.



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:08 am 
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OnlyMe wrote:
Fans do require total (and local, not at the CU) isolation.
A switched, fused spur it is then. Many thanks for your help :occasion5:


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