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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 10:28 pm 
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Hi. I want to investigate whether there is debris, etc at the bottom of my cavity. The wall build up is as follows;


Block on flat (inner leaf) 100mm(4") cavity filled with EPS bonded bead insulation -> block on flat (outer leaf).


House is a Semi-D - built circa 2006. General background is that there is water ingress from outside to inside. There are a couple of reasons for that - and I'm happy we've gotten to the bottom of them.

That said, I'm also concerned that there could potentially be an issue in terms of debris on the cavity wall floor and possibly issues with the DPC membrane. I'm also concerned re. the floor internally and therefore, the dpm (and as to whether it was installed correctly) but investigating this is going to be a nightmare i.e. destructive testing of the concrete floor screen internally, removal of a block from the inner leaf - it's a lot of work - and it's pot luck if we find the point of defect (if even that is the cause).

However, I have an opening made in the outer leaf - and I can access the cavity itself. One of the openings is a couple of feet from the base. I can cut my way down through the bonded bead cavity insulation and check the bottom of that section. However, I'm wondering if there's a way I can 'burrow' through along the bottom of the cavity - and remove the cavity fill from that bottom section - checking to see if there's any debris buildup along the floor?

This is investigative work for an insurance claim. They've admitted to certain aspects of it - but debris on the floor of the cavity is not one of them - and the implications that may have (i.e. water could be building up and getting in over the 'lip' of the dpm and over the dpc.


Any thoughts on what gadget I could use to scrape out the cavity at the very base (only - not above it).


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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 11:30 pm 
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The cavity should extend 3 brick courses below dpc, is the debris above that?



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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 12:36 am 
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@Notch1 - it's blocks rather than bricks.


I have not as yet scooped all the way down to the base. However, even when I do, I want to find a way of checking the rest of the length of the wall for debris - with the minimal amount of invasive action. Perhaps I can push something through the cavity insulation?


My scenario is complicated by the fact that there is bonded bead eps cavity insulation filling the cavity. If the cavity was empty, I could simply use a boroscope.


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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 8:01 am 
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So your inner and outer skins are blocks laid flat?

Does that each leaf is 215mm wide? -seems very large.

You must be rather pinappled off that a 2005 house has a damp problem!

Have you had a specialist damp surveyor investigate? -it might be worth paying for one yourself to get an independant viewpoint. It will give you more leverage for a claim. They also may be able to offer some practical remedial options.

I dont have any suggestions for extracting your cavity at the bottom unfortunately.



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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 9:10 am 
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Notch1 wrote:
So your inner and outer skins are blocks laid flat? Does that each leaf is 215mm wide? -seems very large.

That's correct. Cavity is 100mm.

Notch1 wrote:
You must be rather pinappled off that a 2005 house has a damp problem!
indeed :-)

Notch1 wrote:
Have you had a specialist damp surveyor investigate? -it might be worth paying for one yourself to get an independant viewpoint. It will give you more leverage for a claim. They also may be able to offer some practical remedial options.
I dont have any suggestions for extracting your cavity at the bottom unfortunately.

I've had a couple of different engineers investigate. They've assisted in getting the claim to a certain level. It gets tricky to prove this last point (water ingress onto the floor as a result of dpm/dpc or debris build up issue) without increasing costs considerably (with no guarantee of being able to present full proof afterwards). Investigational costs are on me - the insurance company will not pay for same (even if I'm proven right - which I believe is morally wrong but that's the contract/policy that exists between us).
I did get a quote off a 'specialist' to remove 3x sections of the internal floor - to check for same but he was quoting £930. Even with that, he's only checking the dpm and dpc in those particular spots. He can check any buildup of 'muck' in the cavity by clearing out the insulation in those areas - but not for the complete cavity.

I'd have no issue in letting him have at it - but there's no guarantee he will come out with a definitive answer as the approach is hit and miss.


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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 10:11 am 
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It sounds like your house was designed using non conventional construction methods which were either poorly thought out or poorly executed.

Sometimes I think too much time spent studying theoretical energy efficient construction without fully considering the implications of site conditions or need for contractors to be trained.

I dont understand why a new house should have bonded bead cavity fill, which is designed for retro fit.

Conventional construction with rockwall cavity batts or partial fill with celetex batts is a pretty standard construction method.

All cavities can leak in heavy rain so a clear cavity is always the best option.

I can only think your option is to cut out some blocks low down and see whether there is debris at the bottom. The problem you have is that if the beads arent well bonded, as soon as you remove the bottom layer to expose the beads will fall down.

Are you suffering damp walls and damp floors.


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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 10:29 am 
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Notch1 wrote:
Are you suffering damp walls and damp floors.

Efflorescence on the walls. They concede liability for this. However, nobody had every checked the floors (myself included). I suppose that the assumption would be that the dpc an dpm would ensure that there could be no water leakage onto the floor screed.

I pulled up the carpet and found this => http://imgur.com/a/K4re8
See watermark 0.5m in from the inside surface of the gable wall perimeter? Now I can't say that it's 'wet'. I can't say the carpet underlay was wet. However, I can say that the carpet underlay was extremely damp.

Is it logical to think that this could only happen due to a breach in the integrity of the dpc or dpm (or build-up of debris which would then allow water to circumvent the dpc/dpm?)? Could it be possible that water (over time - this process has been running 2-3 years) could trickle down the wall, inside or outside the skirting and onto the floor? If so, would it be logical that it would reach that depth away from the wall?


I wonder if I should drill some holes in that screed (not deep enough to puncture the dpm) and then use a probe moisture meter (if I can get my hands on one) to take readings - would that be sufficient to prove my case? Then let them do whatever is necessary in order to rectify - without major invasive works having to be carried out by me - at my expense??


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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 2:27 pm 
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So the internal wall is plastered and the bonding plaster is damp?

Youve said damp is goung from outside to inside so is the diagnosis that rainwater has penetrated the outer skin, travelled through the cavity via the insulation, or mortar snots on brick ties, or debris in bottom of cavity?

If thats the case I guesd the cavity insulation must be wet around the problem area.

You could test the screed, but you would need a scientific methodology to prove your case, moisture testing is not easy.

http://www.preservationexpert.co.uk/whi ... appraisal/

If the damp floor is adjacent to the damp wall, it could be the case that the screed has been laid up against the inner wall and the dpm finishes below the screed level. That would allow damp to travel laterally across. It may be worth taking off the skirting and chipping away the edge of the screed to see if there is any dpm creating a separation.

Generally a floor dpm is laid onto sand blinding then concrete oversite is poured, then insulation, then screed. If the screed is above screed, I would think damp from a faulty dpm would an unlikely cause of a damp screed.

I assume all other factors have been eliminated, ie roof leaking at tile verge by gable, leaking water pipe either hot, cold feed, central heating. If your central heating is pressurized you arent losing pressure?

Are you certain the damp issue is the damp wall spreading to the screed, not the other way round?



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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 5:04 pm 
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Notch1 wrote:
So the internal wall is plastered and the bonding plaster is damp?
Correct. There are numerous patches of 'effloresence salts' / peeled away paint along one wall - at various places from the base (just above skirting) as far up as 2 meters in height.

Notch1 wrote:
You've said damp is going from outside to inside so is the diagnosis that rainwater has penetrated the outer skin, travelled through the cavity via the insulation, or mortar snots on brick ties, or debris in bottom of cavity??
That's correct. It's been accepted that driving rain is finding its way through from the outside, across the (filled) cavity and permeating through the inner leaf to the internal plastered surface of the wall.
It's been suggested to me by engineers acting for the insurer that the wall ties are not a factor due to the full fill insulation (regardless of whether they're covered in mortar or not). The debris in the bottom of the cavity has not been proven by anyone. However, my most recent concern (as liability on the other matter has been conceded) with regard to damp flooring - has led me to consider this aspect of things ...as I am trying to determine why the flooring could be damp.

Notch1 wrote:
If thats the case I guesd the cavity insulation must be wet around the problem area.
That's correct. Upon making the invasive openings externally through the outer leaf of the wall, sections of EPS bonded bead infill were removed and found to be saturated. That's acknowledged by the insurers engineers also.

Notch1 wrote:
You could test the screed, but you would need a scientific methodology to prove your case, moisture testing is not easy.
I'm unsure. I think that it may be enough to determine a damp floor (given that the issue seems to be evidenced abutting the very same problem wall) - a given moisture level at a specific depth, then that may be sufficient on my part to prove that there's an issue - and palm it off to the other side to 'fix'. The dialogue can advance from there I guess - if they wish to resist or concede. However, IF it's found to be holding more water than whatever the recognised standards indicate - and given it's location - I'd wager it's a reasonable conclusion to come to (that the issues are linked - and are both due to defective workmanship) under those circumstances.

Notch1 wrote:
http://www.preservationexpert.co.uk/which-type-of-moisture-meter-is-best-for-damp-diagnosis-a-quick-and-simple-appraisal/
Thanks for that - will check it out.

Notch1 wrote:
If the damp floor is adjacent to the damp wall, it could be the case that the screed has been laid up against the inner wall and the dpm finishes below the screed level. That would allow damp to travel laterally across. It may be worth taking off the skirting and chipping away the edge of the screed to see if there is any dpm creating a separation.
That's what I'm thinking - either the dpm wasn't laid out properly with the proper 'lip' around the side OR there's so much debris at the base of the cavity that it results in the water coming out over the dpm 'lip'. As regards pulling the skirting off and hacking out a section of screed, I had considered it - but I may leave that be for the moment. If I could get away with a less invasive form of testing for right now, that would be optimal.

Notch1 wrote:
Generally a floor dpm is laid onto sand blinding then concrete oversite is poured, then insulation, then screed. If the screed is above screed, I would think damp from a faulty dpm would an unlikely cause of a damp screed.
Apologies - I'm not the sharpest knife in the box with this type of thing! I don't quite understand that?

Notch1 wrote:
I assume all other factors have been eliminated, ie roof leaking at tile verge by gable, leaking water pipe either hot, cold feed, central heating. If your central heating is pressurized you arent losing pressure?
Definitely ruled out. Have had 5 engineers on site plus a QS and others.

Notch1 wrote:
Are you certain the damp issue is the damp wall spreading to the screed, not the other way round?
I can be 100% certain that in saying that the issue evidenced on the wall is moisture/water making its way from outside to inside.

To what extent the screed can be determined/understood to be damp I guess is open to interpretation. That photo suggests it to be so on the surface. The underlay is definitely very damp (I'd categorise it as 'very damp' rather than 'wet') and sections of carpet immediately adjoining the skirting (along the offending wall) have been damaged. Can I say with authority that whatever dampness is evident on the floor is due to an extension of the water ingress through the wall - not completely but I think it's a reasonable assumption to work off. Now, specifically how that's happening is another matter. Is it just rolling down the inside of the wall over the skirting and onto the carpet - then into the floor? I'm unsure. Is it seeping in as a consequence of a defectively placed dpm? I can't say with certainty. Is it due to water collecting in the bottom of the cavity - seeping over a correctly laid dpm (as a result of a build up of debris at the base of the cavity) - possibly - but I can't say with certainty.


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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 6:34 pm 
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Generally solid concrete floors are constructed as follows

Type 1 aggregate at bottom compacted down,
Then a layer of sand
Then 1200g dpm
Then oversite concrete
Then celetex insulation
Then screed

The dpm sheet is laid on the sand and excess returned up the inner wall, or it wraps over the dpc -although that could create a slip plane.

It must finish above dpc level, often it will be left long and trimmed off after screeding, but could be cut off anywhere above dpc.

Since most modern construction has insulation below screed, there is almost no chance of screed coming into contact with damp travelling from below.

Some construction could have insulation vertically to stop thermal bridging where screed meets inner blockwork.

You could chip off a section of screed below the skirting, leaving the skirting in place -that would tell if there is any dpm between. If you get down to the bottom of screed, about 50-70mm you will see if you find insulation.

If you have damp in the cavity insulation, it could easily travel horizontally through the inner skin which you already know is wet and across the screed. A damp meter could be used across the floor, if it is very low reading on the opposite side of the room increasing as you reach the tide mark, thats good evidence. You can take photos of the damp meter showing its reading at the place its measuring.

If the screed is getting damp from the inner wall, once the wall issue is resolved, it should dry out.

It seems the only solution is removing the cavity insulation, in which case the access holes needed to do it will visibly show any debris in the cavity, so I dont know if you need to investigate it, you do need to make sure the contractors check and clear any debris as they go.

So do you know the cause of the wet cavity insulation?

I suppose the source of the water is either,
Rain penetration through outer skin,

Damp rising through faulty dpc or from bottom of cavity

Interstitial condensation which is moisture laden air condensating on cold extrrnal skin. Caused by incorrect detailing.

If the outer skin is render, that is really quite waterproof, much more so than face brickwork.

Certainly many homeowners have rued the day they chose to have retro fitted cavity insulation for exactly the problem you are experiencing and most often on exposed gable ends.



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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 7:34 pm 
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Notch1 wrote:
The dpm sheet is laid on the sand and excess returned up the inner wall, or it wraps over the dpc -although that could create a slip plane.
This is going to sound a bit thick but can't be helped :-)

Is the DPC run on both inner leaf and outer leaf of a block cavity wall construction or just the outer leaf?
When you say it is returned up the inner wall, do you mean on the internal side of that (inner leaf) wall - and if so, how far up can I expect that return to go? i.e. if I just removed, the skirting, would I be likely to see it?

Notch1 wrote:
It must finish above dpc level, often it will be left long and trimmed off after screeding, but could be cut off anywhere above dpc.
Overlapping with my last question but if I remove the skirting, is dpc likely to be visible?

Notch1 wrote:
If the screed is getting damp from the inner wall, once the wall issue is resolved, it should dry out.

Should this actually happen though - in the first instance - if the wall construction/dpc/dpm, (at the junction of wall meets floor -
forgetting about the issues further up the wall) has been detailed correctly?


Notch1 wrote:
It seems the only solution is removing the cavity insulation, in which case the access holes needed to do it will visibly show any debris in the cavity, so I dont know if you need to investigate it, you do need to make sure the contractors check and clear any debris as they go.
Here's the rub. The insurer - as per the policy - has the right to reinstate themselves or pay out (they have now elected to do the latter and have presented me with a settlement sum). Consideration of flooring has not hit anyone's radar - except mine (when I went to investigate the carpet with a view to having them cover the cost of that damage).
With that, no provision in their costings has been made for rectifying any such defect (specific to whatever is leading to floor dampness). Hence my investigation - into figuring out what's at odds and what needs to be specified in order to have it put right. I don't have the luxury of discovering things 'on the fly'. Once I sign off on settlement, naturally they're looking for full and final settlement.

Notch1 wrote:
So do you know the cause of the wet cavity insulation? I suppose the source of the water is either,
Rain penetration through outer skin.
It's accepted that there's only one thin coat of render (in a location where 3 would be appropriate) - so driving rain is getting in through the render and outer leaf. That much is certain.
With regard to the bonded bead, it's supposed to have a coating that means the water droplets are repelled - and make their way to the bottom. 'Maybe' there's some truth to this as the issue seems to manifest itself on the ground floor - not the 1st floor. That said, it's supposed to drop down - but it's not supposed to transfer all the way across. Is it getting trapped at the bottom - and with that, it then bridges across? Is there something intrinsically wrong with the bonded bead (as my engineer seems to think)?

Notch1 wrote:
Damp rising through faulty dpc or from bottom of cavity
This is the thing. The workmanship was utterly dreadful on this development. The 'developer' went bust shortly afterwards. It could be a combination of factors - that's the problem.

Notch1 wrote:
Interstitial condensation which is moisture laden air condensating on cold extrrnal skin. Caused by incorrect detailing.

Again, I'm not sure how I'd go about solving that mystery. The wall build up = block on flat 215mm (inner leaf), 100mm cavity - filled with EPS bonded bead - block on flat 215mm - one render course.
Notch1 wrote:
If the outer skin is render, that is really quite waterproof, much more so than face brickwork. Certainly many homeowners have rued the day they chose to have retro fitted cavity insulation for exactly the problem you are experiencing and most often on exposed gable ends.

I should probably have started out by telling you i'm in Ireland. We don't tend to have a tradition of using brick. Render can work fine - if it's applied with the correct number of layers. Now you'll find this strange but this was bonded bead on a new build. It can be done successfully if the detailing is right and the rendering is right and to a proficient level and thickness. In this instance, this particular gable gets savaged in the winter with driving rain.
I've also read that it's less likely to be an issue (water ingress) with a thicker cavity....but again, the cavity in question reaches the minimum standard (it's 100mm).


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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 8:46 pm 
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Yes both skins must have dpc.

During construction, the walls are built up to dpc level, dpm is laid down and goes up the inside of inner wall. It could then just be left sticking up and cut off after screeding. Generally screed finishes at almost same level, which can be seen at a doorway. The door cill sits on top of the dpc and the screed is usually at about same level. Once the floor finish is laid that usually stops a bit higher on the inside of the cill.

There is no construction fault if the screed touches the inner wall as long as its above the dpc. Your carpet or underlay may touch the inner block wall.

Also your damp plaster may go right down to the screed, so maybe its touching the screed and carpet. Ie the damp is travelling down, not a result of the dpm or dpc at inner wall junction being bridged.

The lateral travel of damp into the floor is because the inner wall is damp above the dpc.

If you chip away a bit of screed under the skirting you should be able to find the dpm and perhaps dpc. You can work out where the dpc is by transferring a level across a doorway from outside.

It would be almost impossible to prove the dpm is not damaged or laid correctly, you can though see if it is in place at the inner wall.


I guess you need to engage contractors to resolve the issues at the cheapest price but sorts it out
What you need to achieve is a clear cavity with no insulation allowing bridging,
If accessed from outside then I guess new render is needed
Also 225mm of clear cavity below dpc, so any water falls well below the inner skin dpc.

The inner wall will, need plaster removed, salt treatment then suitable waterproofing, then probably a waterproof sand cement render rather than bonding plaster.

Some useful sites for damp proofing materials

http://www.safeguardeurope.com

http://www.treatdamp.co.uk

https://www.******.co.uk/manufacturers ... -k501.html


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 7:18 pm 
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I got a quote from an engineer to have this (potential dpc/dpm defect) investigated but I simply can't afford it :-( Will have to do this myself.

I've removed the skirting - see pics here => http://imgur.com/a/gMhzO

Attachment:
A1.jpg
A1.jpg [ 163.2 KiB | Viewed 395 times ]
Pic attached. Mod 2.

There's a very fine crevice between wall and floor which extends down for quite a bit. Should the DPM be wrapped around the edge of that? i.e. once I rip up a section of the screed, the dpm will be wrapped along that 'edge'?

The first photo shows an adjoining wall on the right hand side. This is an internal wall - splitting living room area and diner/kitchen area - the other wall being the gable wall. Through to the kitchen/diner (other side of that wall), there is one radiator. There's no other radiator on the gable wall, no other rad. in the kitchen diner and only one other Rad. in the living room (against the front wall as opposed to the gable wall).

I don't *think* that there are pipes laid along where I propose to create the opening in the floor. However, I can't be 100% certain. What's the chances? How can I minimise risk of damage?


Lastly, will I be able to hack back the chunk of screed with a bolster chisel & hammer? I don't suppose I can save that carpet fixing thingy?


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 11:42 am 
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Ok, so I took a bolster chisel to it =>

http://imgur.com/a/DreZU

This pic shows a section of screed removed - down to the point where the underfloor insulation is showing. Now I appreciate that the dpm would be underneath that still - but should I not see it return up along the side of the insulation/screed - and then turn in to the wall at dpc level (i'm not sure where that is just yet)? Is it rationale to think that the dpc could be lower - and that's the reason I'm not seeing the 'lip' of the dpm??

EDIT - I've tried to clean up that image so that it's a bit clearer => http://imgur.com/a/aPsa2


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 7:49 am 
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Ok, got a little bit more time - so chiseled back right to the face of the block - and still no sign of the 'returning end' of the Damp Proof Membrane - along the perimeter/side.


Pic => http://imgur.com/e1Kap3b


Surely it can't be a case that it's meeting the dpc at a point lower than the screed and floor insulation?? If that was the case, would that be legal?


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