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 Post subject: Dado blade for table saw
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:46 pm 
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Dear all,

can you suggest me a table saw which has an arbor long enough to accept a dado blade set up to 3/4"?

Many thanks for the support,

B.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:52 pm 
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If you are based in the uk you won't get a a table saw that takes a dado blade deemed unsafe for uk use


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:59 pm 
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Apparently that's a myth.

The official view of the HSE is that dado sets are OK, provided the saw was designed to take them, and the correct safety precautions are taken.Nearly all table saws sold here don't have an arbour long enough that'll accept a dado and don't have the facility to have the appropriate safety gaurd either.
We've all witnessed norm abrahms machining all manner of things on the new Yankee workshop with no guards on any of his machines,however as well as being in the USA the safety guards are removed for tv purposes.

Job & Knock will maybe see this thread and give the 100% appropriate advice,he's an expert on woodworking machinery and the do's dont's and specifics of a tool.



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:40 pm 
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:dunno:

BUT : https://www.bosch-professional.com/gb/en/community/category/dado-blades/389289-t

Quote:
Written on 15.05.2012, 19:05 o’clock

Hi all

The reason for dado blades being banned in the UK was initially due to the high number of people chopping serious bits out of fingers and hands and due to the nature of the injury, repairs were not usually very good! The EU Directives do then prohibit. The problem in using a dado blade many people do not make any form of guarding to compensate for removing the top/crown guard. Contrary to what everyone says about 'I'll be carefull' I had the pleasure of investigating dozens or hand injuries on table saws, spindles, radial arm saws, planers ...... and in many - not all - cases guards were not in place or adequate. People do make mistakes - often.

Please don't just mock elf n safety as if it is there to stop everyone doing what they want, the vast majority of the rules spring from real experience. In case you are interested I was one of Her Majesties Inspectors of Factories and responsible for enforcing the safety laws. The majority of silly stuff you read/hear about where health and safety is used as the excuse are usually total rubbish. In this case its for a good reason.

Regarding the States and allowing dado blades - put the correct sticker on something and you suddenly find the litigation in America can disappear. Sadly, a sticker doesn't put your fingers back on. Use a router or spindle moulder?


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:48 pm 
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It's more to do with the saws in the uk/eu not being compatible(safely) with dado stack cutters I'd have thought than people being injured using them. Why? Well anyone can go to b&q and buy themselves a chainsaw,circular saw,router or any manner of tool and chop their fingers off if they don't use them safely.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 10:00 pm 
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could be wrong :lol:
i thought it was something to do with the electric brake/stopping rate with a much heavier dado cutter :dunno:
as well as the need for gaurds to cover with no gap greater than 6mm/1/4" between work in place and cutters

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 10:09 pm 
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Whilst I AGREE with you SJ74, about the dangers of routers and Circ saws - and the possible LETHAL consequences of an accident with a chain-saw, that doesn't explain why saws compatible with dado blades are NOT available (legally) in EU countries.
In fact, the 'Official Bosch response on that Forum I quoted says:

Quote:
Hi Guys

I got a pretty straight forward answer that doesn't really answer why from a technical stand point but explains why we don't do them here.

"Using DADO blade is prohibited by EN and IEC standards. Therefore this is not offered in the European market. "

America clearly has different standards.

Bob

Things MAY be different in >/= 2 years time.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 10:11 pm 
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It's a bit of a minefield tbh BA,like I said I think J&K would be best placed to give the best answer on this.
For the hobby woodworker their would be no issue,you'd use a dado stack cutter at your own risk if your saw could incorporate one. The grey area is in a commercial/industrial setting but in this case a spindle mouldier in a modern workshop would be used.
The firm I served my time with had a large joinery workshop I rarely worked in as they had dedicated bench hand joiners,however they used dado cutters but the machinery was ancient and elf and safety laws were somewhat less stringent.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 10:15 pm 
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AAA.Handy.Man wrote:
Whilst I AGREE with you SJ74, about the dangers of routers and Circ saws - and the possible LETHAL consequences of an accident with a chain-saw, that doesn't explain why saws compatible with dado blades are NOT available (legally) in EU countries.
In fact, the 'Official Bosch response on that Forum I quoted says:

Quote:
Hi Guys

I got a pretty straight forward answer that doesn't really answer why from a technical stand point but explains why we don't do them here.

"Using DADO blade is prohibited by EN and IEC standards. Therefore this is not offered in the European market. "

America clearly has different standards.

Bob

Things MAY be different in >/= 2 years time.


cant see much changing in that respect we need to keep in with the continent more than america so will need to comply if we need to sell or buy within europe

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 10:15 pm 
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AAA.Handy.Man wrote:
Whilst I AGREE with you SJ74, about the dangers of routers and Circ saws - and the possible LETHAL consequences of an accident with a chain-saw, that doesn't explain why saws compatible with dado blades are NOT available (legally) in EU countries.
In fact, the 'Official Bosch response on that Forum I quoted says:

Quote:
Hi Guys

I got a pretty straight forward answer that doesn't really answer why from a technical stand point but explains why we don't do them here.

"Using DADO blade is prohibited by EN and IEC standards. Therefore this is not offered in the European market. "

America clearly has different standards.

Bob

Things MAY be different in >/= 2 years time.


What's prohibited by EN and IEC standards isn't the same as what's prohibited by law in a workplace by the H&SE.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 10:25 pm 
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Some interesting and learned data here, Mi' Lord.

http://www.ultimatehandyman.co.uk/forum1/dwe7491-t74662.html



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 10:33 pm 
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AAA.Handy.Man wrote:
Some interesting and learned data here, Mi' Lord.

http://www.ultimatehandyman.co.uk/forum1/dwe7491-t74662.html


Yeah I can just about recall that thread!
100% go with j&k's advice on said thread,he has waaay more experience,knowledge and know how on this topic :salute:


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:52 pm 
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BertieT wrote:
can you suggest me a table saw which has an arbor long enough to accept a dado blade set up to 3/4"?

I have got to ask the question, "Why?". The reason I ask is that for most trade use the use of trenching or dado heads has all but disappeared - the need has been passed by because of a combination of changes in jointing techniques (e.g. KD fastener systems, biscuit jointing, Dominos, etc) and changes to H&S regulation which require the use of the safest possible approach which tends to preclude the use of a dado set in a table saw. So, what possible application is there where a dado set is the one and only solution?

I had my previous comments of 2-1/2 years ago referred to earlier in this thread so I went back and re-read them. Nothing in the intervening period has happened to change my mind about what I stated then and it is all as true now as it was then, but maybe I should point out that as both a trained wood machinist and (currently) as a lead carpenter/foreman I am all too aware of the health and safety issues surrounding the equipment we use in our daily work. That's partly why I am so dismissive of frankly ill-informed and often downright ignorant comments about the "nanny state" which some people bandy about.

If you tell us why (for what tasks) you need a dado head, then someone will chime in with an alternative approach which is safer, I'm sure

big-all wrote:
i thought it was something to do with the electric brake/stopping rate with a much heavier dado cutter :dunno:

That's part of the issue - as I have (probably) stated elsewhere it is a legal requirement for manufacturers and importers only to sell circular saws which can stop within 10 seconds of an emergency power shut-down. Even with lightweight saws this is fairly easy to achieve (some SCM-Minimax saws, for example, do this by increasing the tension that the drive belts are under and nothing more) - but the mass (weight) of a dado set means that the saw would need to have a brake intalled to meet the 10 second limit as well as requiring either a double (locking) nut or other arrangement (such as drive pins) to prevent the dado set simply unscrewing itself on the arbor under heavy braking.

big-all wrote:
as well as the need for gaurds to cover with no gap greater than 6mm/1/4" between work in place and cutters

Not really relevant, TBH. The issue is one of providing a safety guard above the cutter set to prevent hand/cutter contacts under any circumstances. See my comments in an earlier thread as to hoe Scheppach in particular approach the problem

AAA.Handy.Man wrote:
Things MAY be different in >/= 2 years time.

I very much doubt that. The UK was central, in conjunction with Germany, in developing many of the current woodworking safety standards based on a combination of sound engineering principles and solid analysis of health and safety issues. We aren't going to throw away 100 years of legislation on a whim overnight, especially when there is absolutely no commercial or industrial case to do so. As far as America goes, they are belatedly coming round to our way of thinking on saw safety with riving knives having mandated on new saws within recent (i.e. the last 10) years and with the OSHA apparently considering the introduction of saw braking and better fence systems

Whatever anyone says, dado heads are one approach - but as with many woodworking tasks there are often alternative approaches which are safer

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:58 pm 
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Are you a 'Lead' Magistrate in your spare time, J&K?

(Having known a few, outside that role, I trust that you will regard my comment as a great compliment on your summation.)

My "Things MAY be different in >/= 2 years time." was with my tongue firmly in my cheek. Tho' I fear that there is a head of steam to cut back the inspectorate, which is far too small already, IMO.
I worked in the Petrochemical industry - Manufacturing side - at Teesside in the mid to late 1960s and saw the deadly consequences of 'errors' made even in an International Coy renown for its Safety measures.
When people who have done nothing more hazardous in their employment than sharpen a 3B pencil then decry H&S I get slightly :wtf:


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:11 pm 
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Not a JP, but I have the appropriate C&G qualifications and I have trained a number of people over the years (as one does). I do think there is a load of bull about H&S, although it comes from misunderstanding, misuse and downright ignorance in most cases IMHO

I'll give you an example (sorry if I've told this one already): at least one large construction firm in the UK has banned the use of any utility (Stanley) knife unless the blade is the auto-retract type. This is on safety grounds. The reason is that last year one of their labourers was tasked with cutting a piece of plastic drain pipe. Being a "resourceful" fellow and posessing but a Stanley knife he proceded to hack away at the pipe with his knife until he slipped and gashed himself badly. The company H&S guys subsequently decided to ban all open knives.....

There are a few points to take from this which this company didn't consider; the operative wasn't trained or competent to carry out the task in question; he lacked the required equipment to carry out the task safely (a fine-tooth hand saw); his manager failed to ensure that the operative had either the equipment or the experience/training to do the job required; there was no reference to Method Statement or Risk Assessment in any of this catalogue of errors - which might have pointed the way if anyone had bothered to include this risk. But for all that we got a blanket ban on Stanley knives when the operative should have been given basic instruction plus the tools and where the manager should clearly have been given a verbal kicking and made to write 1,000 lines by the morning. With BS like this going on is it any wonder H&S has ot a bad name? And that's before we get the incompetents hiding behind H&S BS because they are just too bone idle or stupid to think things through properly (e.g. banning conkers at school, banning ladders completely, etc)

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