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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:52 pm 
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Help? Please

System - Baxi Boiler heating water to radiators and a storage cylinder, only two options Hot Water or Heating & Hot Water.
Storage tank - 73 Litres.
Boiler is actually stored in my loft are and the storage cylinder in a room one floor below the boiler.

We have central heating cover with Scottish Gas (SG). Approx 1 year ago we had a leak in the Storage cylinder and SG came out and replaced the storage cylinder.

After this we (eventually) noticed that the it would take some time before the water in the storage tank became warm and recently we have been timing this and it can take approx 4-6 Hrs to heat the water in the Storage Cylinder when it is just the hot water on (heating off).
I have no problems with my heating, the radiators heat up quickly and are extremely warm.

On starting up the boiler from a fresh and checking the flow from the boiler to the storage cylinder at the water pipe going in to the storage cylinder, the pipe is extremely water, to warm to touch with bare hand. On checking the return coming out the storage cylinder this is cold, then after 1 hr becomes Luke warm and after several hrs become similar to the flow from the boiler.

Further investigation highlighted that I seamed to be getting a regular (approx, every 10 mins) overflow of boiling hot water going direct from a pipe in the side of the boiler directly in to the top of my header tank (not the pipe at the bottom of my tank going directly in to the boiler) The header tank has extremely hot water in it.
When the heating and hot water is running at same time this dumping process doesn’t happen as regular.


On calling out the SG Heating Engineer, they as usual quickly diagnosed that I needed a new boiler (as usual).
I mentioned that the boiler seemed to be producing plenty of hot water for the heating and hot water. He then within minutes told me that I probably had a blockage in a pipe and this wasn’t covered under the any cover available with SG. (I have maxim SG Cover).
The Engineer then stated that as my boiler is over 10 years old and due to SG cost for a power flush, I would be better replacing the boiler and quickly left. Before leaving he recommended that I could take a magnate and run up and down the pipes looking for the blockage. I did this on all return and flow pipes to and from the cylinder and boiler, but found no blockage

I decided to read up some further on how a central heating system work, to allow me to try and better challenge the SG Engineers. One of the first things I identified is that the Storage Cylinder is meant have the Flow (hot pipe) from the boiler going in to the cylinder above the return to boiler (cooler pipe). On my Cylinder this appears to be reversed and the flow is going in to the bottom of the cylinder and the return is above it in the cylinder.

We have a friend of a friend who has not long started an apprenticeship as plumber but hasn’t done much work on central heating systems. I spoke with them and they believe that this could be a reason why my hot water is not heating as quickly as it should and dumping water from the boiler to the header tank.
He has stated that for 73 Litre even with and old boiler is should be heating the water within 30 to 60 minutes at the most.

Before I get the SG Engineers back out I am looking for some confirmation that the way the boiler flow and return to my storage cylinder being reversed maybe causing the problems I am seeing.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Peter


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:12 pm 
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I read all that. :thumbright:

Ok to clear up your concerns it doesn't matter normally whether the flow is in the bottom or top of the coil, I always pipes mine in the bottom.

The problem sounds a circulation problem, could be the pump, a motorized valve, air, sludge or an installation fault, whereas the coil may have twisted do to some cowboy with a big pair a grips.

We need a plan and or pics how the system is installed.

If the boiler is above the cylinder, where is the header tank ?.

Where is the cold feed and vent.

What was the problem with the old cylinder.

When was the work carried out.



For this message the author thescruff has received gratitude : pete1969
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 12:39 am 
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I have also read it as well.

Unfortunately somewhere else!

And I replied to him too! I suppose he did not like my advice. Same as yours though Scruff!


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:31 am 
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Thanks for the quick reply.

As my Cylinder was only changed 12 months ago and I had two new radiators fitted just over 2 years ago and the system was flushed on both occasions and I never had problems like this prior to the new cylinder how would my system have become sludged up.

The header tank is approx 1.5 ft above the boiler,

The old cylinder had developed a leak.

Where is the cold feed and Vent? Cold feed to the boiler feeds in to the side of the boiler and the vent (flue) is in the top of the boiler going straight up out through the roof.

Once again thanks thescruff and agile


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:56 am 
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Thanks for the quick reply. sorry some more detail than last post.

As my Cylinder was only changed 12 months ago and I had two new radiators fitted just over 2 years ago and the system was flushed on both occasions and I never had problems like this prior to the new cylinder how would my system have become sludged up. If my system was sludged up would I expect to get problems with my radiators, I believe all my radiators are plumbed in with microbore 8 mm piping?

The header tank is approx 1.5 ft above the boiler.

Hot water comes out boiler in 25mm (I think) pipe and goes through pump and the splits of to a 15mm pipe which feeds the hot water cylinder. The 25mm pipe continues down and just about 15cm below the 15mm split detailed above is the motorised value, which I take when open feeds the central heating radiators.

The old cylinder had developed a leak.

Where is the cold feed and Vent? Cold feed to the boiler feeds in to the side of the boiler and the vent (flue) is in the top of the boiler going straight up out through the roof.

Just feeling slightly frustrated that the Scottish Gas are quite happy to take £19 per month and the slightest problem always starts by I need a new boiler. In 12 years the only thing they have ever done is replace 2 or 3 pumps (with the exception of the new cylinder) and first time something slightly more difficult it is diagnosed in 5 mins as being a block in a pipe and not covered.

Once again thanks thescruff and agile and any further thoughts or advise would be greatly appreciated.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:36 am 
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Not a CH expert but in similar plumbing matters I have found transit plugs/bungs left in; perhaps your "new cylinder" coil has some dust plug left (rag) in place, otherwise Scuffs suggestion that the coil could have been twisted (neck screwed) by a cowboy during connection thereby restricting the flow.
The Industry I worked in took great pains to design plastic "transit plugs" which could not be left in place during assemble, common culprit was sticky tape, I could tell a horror story or two but this is not the Forum for that.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:06 am 
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Has the problem with the cylinder been since it was installed, and how long has Sg been aware there's a problem.

Is there ant vents on or around the primary pipes to the cylinder.

Can you post some pics please showing the cylinder and boiler. not tpoo close so we gets lots of detail.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:14 am 
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We had a call like this recently. Client fitted a brand new cylinder and it didn't work :sad:

This one was deffo down to bad fitting :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:15 am 
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Ps the other thing I'd check is theres no balancing valve fitted on the return from the cylinder which was turned off during the flush and has broken internally :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:20 am 
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Assume the coil has turned when they made the fittings on.

Only seen it once, but know of several the same.

I always put my finger in the pipe and feel it when tightening the fitting, that way you know if it moves.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:22 am 
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That pigtail in the middle of the first picture is the coil Scruff :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:27 am 
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I know that, can't see the damage though. other than it's out of shape.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:39 am 
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When he nutted the return up the coil was turned 3 or 4 times absolutely wrecked it :roll:

I gave him slightly more than scrap value and fitted it somewhere else as a direct unit :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:13 pm 
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Once again thanks for all the comments, sorry for taking so long to get back to you all, learning how to load photo's, etc.

I am unfamiliar with a Ant Vent but have attached requested picture of my storage cylinder and spaghetti junction of Pipes. I have also added a picture of the boiler and pipes going in and out.
The new Cylinder was installed just over a year ago and I think it has been like this since fitted, the way we use the hot water is to tend to turn it on in the morning and turn of later in the evening and by this point the water is warm. It has only been recently that when we had visitors and tried to run a couple of baths within 2 Hrs of each other I noticed the water was not very warm. I then spend some time timing how long it would take to heat the water. During the timing I also notice the boiler dumping extremely hot water in to the header tank.

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Another issues that I just seen while investigating this issue. When SG replaced my older cylinder I had an electric immersor fitted and on the new one fitted they didn't replace the electric immersor. To make things even worse they left the electrical wire from the immersor switch lying next to the copper pipe run ( see pic 1) with bare wires at the end. Not being too technically minded but this does seem a bit naughty, if the pipes weren't properly earthed and I had turned the immersor switch on, would all my heating pipe work have become live? Also a bit PiXXed off that I cannot switch the electric immersor on in emergencies.

Once again thanks and hopefully the more information I have will help when I need to challenge the SG Engineers when they come. Also I may ask for a supervisor to come due to the botch job I then the made of replacing the cylinder especially in line with the wire next to the pipes.

Peter


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:32 pm 
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Jesus that's rough. Do you need a link to the rogues gallery :lol:

Assuming the flow and return from the boiler are on the right hand side on your first pic does the return (top pipe) get hotter if you open the gatevalve (red handle) at the top of the picture a couple of turns?

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