DIY Forum

 

Ultimate HandymanUltimate Handyman on Pinterest

 

DIY Forum/Home improvement advice forum

 

 

A-Z CONTENTS | DISCLAIMER | DIY VIDEO | HOME | SAFETY FIRST | FORUM RULES

It is currently Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:01 am
Visit Hilti


Time zone: Europe/London [ DST ]




 

 


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Toilet Crossflow
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:02 am 
Offline
Newly registered Member

Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:27 am
Posts: 5
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 0 times
I have two toilets (one in a bathroom and one in an ensuite, one room along) which share the same soil waste and functioned harmoniously together for many years. Toilet B, which is 'downstream' of Toilet A has recently started to receive a a little of the waste from Toilet A, when Toilet A is flushed. Although this has only recently become noticeable (Toilet B was previously used and flushed regularly, but less so recently, so the build up has become obvious) I suspect the issue arose a year or so ago when I replaced the soil pan connector on Toilet B. I didn't knowingly adjust the relative positioning of the toilet to the pipes, just removed the toilet, replaced the soil pan connector and put back in place. The toilets flush well, there is no blockage.

What might have happened to cause this crossflow? And how can I correct it? If there is no simple solution, I thought I could mitigate the problem by fitting an anti-rodent barrier. Does that seem a sensible plan?

Thank you
Daniel


Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on DiggShare on DeliciousShare on Google+
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Toilet Crossflow
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:42 pm 
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:42 pm
Posts: 893
Has thanked: 205 times
Been thanked: 270 times
:welcomeuhm:

Based on what you've said so far, I'm going to go for a broken or blocked durgo or vent, incorrect fall on the soil pipe, or a blockage further downstream of the both loos, in that order of likelihood.

Can you post some pics of the whole stack please?

_________________
Haste is the enemy of quality.



For this message the author chrrris has received gratitude : SimBed
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Toilet Crossflow
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:48 pm 
Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:21 pm
Posts: 2792
Location: Kent, Land of Apples and PYO
Has thanked: 55 times
Been thanked: 567 times
+1 on the air vent, the grease in them dries out over time they either stick open or closed



For this message the author Bob225 has received gratitude : SimBed
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Toilet Crossflow
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:13 pm 
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:49 pm
Posts: 23932
Location: hants/dorset border
Has thanked: 1485 times
Been thanked: 3791 times
:welcomeuhm:

1st check I'd make is to flush loo A. (without anything in it) after about a 1/4 or 1/2 a second the water level will rise by about an inch or maybe 2, If it rises any higher then you have a partial blockage.

Same with loo B.

EDIT otherwise as per Chrrrises post

_________________
Verwood Handyman

Verwood Handyman


___________________________________________________________________

If you feel you have benefited from the Free advice given on the Forum, Please consider making a donation to UHM's Nominated charity, read all about it and donate here :

http://www.donnasdreamhouse.co.uk/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Toilet Crossflow
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:53 pm 
Offline
Newly registered Member

Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:27 am
Posts: 5
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 0 times
Thanks for your input.

To reiterate:
1. there is no blockage
2. the fall on the soil pipe has not changed in 20 years and for 19 of the years it all worked fine
So I cannot see that either of these are the cause.

Nobody has suggested I may have caused it by inadvertently lowering the height of the toilet when replacing the pan connector last year. Is this because you are all too diplomatic or because this is unlikely to be the cause?

This leaves the air vent suggestion. I'm not familiar with air vents. Could you help me understand why this might cause the problem please? I have posted some pictures (low quality I'm afraid) to give some more context. These are from archive - i can provide improved pictures of anything that might be relevant. I should point out that it is a 3-storey house without easy access to the roof.

I'd also welcome your comments on whether the anti-rodent barrier might be the simplest cure if replacing the air vent goes beyond my skill set...

Thank you

Daniel


Attachments:
File comment: Toilet B - stack is visible left and connects to Toilet A in room right of this
Toilet B.jpg
Toilet B.jpg [ 682.03 KiB | Viewed 648 times ]
File comment: Toilet B is on floor above directly above this shower
soil stack vertical.jpg
soil stack vertical.jpg [ 521.18 KiB | Viewed 648 times ]
File comment: Is this the air vent?
Soil Stack attic.jpg
Soil Stack attic.jpg [ 121.19 KiB | Viewed 648 times ]
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Toilet Crossflow
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:43 pm 
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:49 pm
Posts: 23932
Location: hants/dorset border
Has thanked: 1485 times
Been thanked: 3791 times
Better pic of the waste connections behind the offending loo please. Also (if you can) a pic of the air vent itself. (on the roof, I'd expect that to be fully open to air)

_________________
Verwood Handyman

Verwood Handyman


___________________________________________________________________

If you feel you have benefited from the Free advice given on the Forum, Please consider making a donation to UHM's Nominated charity, read all about it and donate here :

http://www.donnasdreamhouse.co.uk/



For this message the author wine~o has received gratitude : SimBed
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Toilet Crossflow
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:44 am 
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:42 pm
Posts: 893
Has thanked: 205 times
Been thanked: 270 times
Yes, what wine~o said about a pic of the top of the stack is vital (hence my asking for pictures of the entire stack).

Another reason I wanted pictures of the entire stack was to establish how the second, most downstream loo was connected to the stack (your pictures don't show this). But yes, depending on how the loo is connected to the waste, if you don't have a positive fall from the loo to the waste, then of course sewage will enter the toilet. Sh*t runs downhill.

Forget your anti-rodent barrier. That is for stopping rodents entering a drain, not a method for bodging your broken drainage installation.

_________________
Haste is the enemy of quality.



For this message the author chrrris has received gratitude : wine~o
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Toilet Crossflow
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:32 pm 
Offline
Newly registered Member

Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:27 am
Posts: 5
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 0 times
I've added some additional pictures.
I was able to remove the vent and inspect it. It seems to be in good condition and clear.
The 'horizontal' soil stack runs at approximately 1 degree downhill (in the direction of the vertical stack)
Hope this gives a clearer idea of what's going on.
Thanks
Daniel


Attachments:
P6143660.JPG
P6143660.JPG [ 80.78 KiB | Viewed 601 times ]
P6143672.JPG
P6143672.JPG [ 67.44 KiB | Viewed 601 times ]
P6143669.JPG
P6143669.JPG [ 67.84 KiB | Viewed 601 times ]
P6143666.JPG
P6143666.JPG [ 90.9 KiB | Viewed 601 times ]
P6153683.JPG
P6153683.JPG [ 91.83 KiB | Viewed 601 times ]
P6153682.JPG
P6153682.JPG [ 110.81 KiB | Viewed 601 times ]
P6153679.JPG
P6153679.JPG [ 64.83 KiB | Viewed 601 times ]
P6153685.JPG
P6153685.JPG [ 96.69 KiB | Viewed 601 times ]
P6153675.JPG
P6153675.JPG [ 111.42 KiB | Viewed 601 times ]
P6153674.JPG
P6153674.JPG [ 110.68 KiB | Viewed 601 times ]
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Toilet Crossflow
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:32 pm 
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:49 pm
Posts: 23932
Location: hants/dorset border
Has thanked: 1485 times
Been thanked: 3791 times
All looks good in terms of falls etc. Can't quite work out where loo A is in relation to these pics and how air-gets-behind-water from loo A ??

EDIT. Must be an AAV somewhere to the right of these pics ?

_________________
Verwood Handyman

Verwood Handyman


___________________________________________________________________

If you feel you have benefited from the Free advice given on the Forum, Please consider making a donation to UHM's Nominated charity, read all about it and donate here :

http://www.donnasdreamhouse.co.uk/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Toilet Crossflow
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:46 pm 
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:42 pm
Posts: 893
Has thanked: 205 times
Been thanked: 270 times
I would first try temporarily disconnecting the roof vent completely as it looks it's on a push fit -- if that stops the problem happening then you know it's the vent that's the cause.

The layout isn't clear... does the waste from the other toilet run from the right of the toilet in the picture, across that tee at the back of the pictured toilet? It's impossible to tell accurately from a picture, but that horizontal run should be a good 1:40 drop -- it doesn't look like that to me, if the batten above it is horizontal then it looks like there's no drop, or potentially even a slight fall away from vertical stack, but like I say it's tricky to tell from a picture.

Quite a lot of guesswork there about the layout, etc. But if I've guessed right, the solution would be to remove that tee where the horizontal run meets the vertical, cut enough off the end of the pipe to ensure a 1:40 drop, and replace the tee (with a bit of luck, you'll be able to pull the top part of the vertical run down to meet the lower tee, assuming it's not connected to anything above, otherwise cut out some of the vertical pipe and use a slip coupling, so that the amount you've removed from below the tee, is added above it, IYSWIM).

If you install a rodent trap on a section of pipework that isn't draining properly, then all the poo and bog roll will sit and accumulate around the back of the trap, dry out, and stop the flap opening - it'll block in no time.

_________________
Haste is the enemy of quality.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Toilet Crossflow
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:21 pm 
Offline
Newly registered Member

Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:27 am
Posts: 5
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 0 times
Thanks for sticking with me.

Update:
I have just tested having removed the black conduit, which is pushfit as chrrris suggested (I'm unsure if this is a vent itself or a conduit connected to a vent in the roof). With the top of the stack in the position shown in the new picture attached, the crossflow seems to have been resolved. I will try again later to be sure. Any ways of testing this that don't involve a hearty breakfast?!

I assume leaving the end of the stack hanging by a piece of old rope would be considered a bit of a bodge! What would the next step be? I'm unsure, what is at the end of the thin opening in the attic roof.

Clarification:
Toilet A is in the room to the right of the bathroom shown. Waste from toilet A runs from the right of the toilet in the picture. There is no air entry point on the right hand side.
Air entry is via the vertical stack (left of picture in the photos shown) which goes up to the attic and out through the roof (via the black conduit shown).
At the very exit from the roof, I cannot tell what is there. The best I've done so far is take a long-ranged photo of the roof (previously attached)...I don't know if this gives any clues.
The phorographs may give a false perspective of angles, as I've measured the fall on the 'horizontal' stack at about 1 degree (which translates to about 1:50). Less steep than chrrris recommends but is unchanged from the time when all was working.


Attachments:
P6163689.JPG
P6163689.JPG [ 71.51 KiB | Viewed 562 times ]
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Toilet Crossflow
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:20 pm 
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:42 pm
Posts: 893
Has thanked: 205 times
Been thanked: 270 times
SimBed wrote:
I have just tested having removed the black conduit, which is pushfit as chrrris suggested (I'm unsure if this is a vent itself or a conduit connected to a vent in the roof). With the top of the stack in the position shown in the new picture attached, the crossflow seems to have been resolved. I will try again later to be sure. Any ways of testing this that don't involve a hearty breakfast?!

:lol: Pour something brightly coloured down the loo before you flush it - food colouring or blackcurrent cordial or something. The black flexible connector in your loft space connects to the back of a tile vent in the roof. It's that tile vent that you need to remove and clean -- probably just blocked up with dirt or bird poo or the remnants of a bird's nest or something. There are loads of different types of those vents and I honestly don't know how to get at your particular one, but it should be relatively obvious if you undo the flexi and have a poke about. Hopefully you'll be able to unblock it fully from inside the loft rather than having to get up on the roof.

Don't leave the vent disconnected for any length of time as, basically, smelly sewer gases will be escaping into your roof space.

The 1 degree fall isn't ideal, but as long as there is a fall and as long as it hasn't moved or sagged anywhere since it was all working, then it all points towards the vent. Which is probably a good thing, as that's the easiest thing to fix. :thumbleft:

_________________
Haste is the enemy of quality.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Toilet Crossflow
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:53 pm 
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:49 pm
Posts: 23932
Location: hants/dorset border
Has thanked: 1485 times
Been thanked: 3791 times
I'm sure Chrrris is correct,but still can't work out the layout from loo a and b and where the air comes in any chance of a diagram ?

_________________
Verwood Handyman

Verwood Handyman


___________________________________________________________________

If you feel you have benefited from the Free advice given on the Forum, Please consider making a donation to UHM's Nominated charity, read all about it and donate here :

http://www.donnasdreamhouse.co.uk/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Toilet Crossflow
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:35 am 
Offline
Newly registered Member

Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:27 am
Posts: 5
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 0 times
'm very pleased to report, this has been resolved. I did not need to remove the tile vent itself. Removing the connector, poking around from below and giving everything a good dusting and replacing seems to have been enough.

Many thanks for the helpful input, particularly chrrris for sagely steering me away from the anti-rodent device!

I've posted a crude pic of the layout as it was requested (perhaps I should have done that at the start...)

Thanks Daniel


Attachments:
20180618_085416.jpg
20180618_085416.jpg [ 36.82 KiB | Viewed 494 times ]
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Toilet Crossflow
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:35 pm 
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:49 pm
Posts: 23932
Location: hants/dorset border
Has thanked: 1485 times
Been thanked: 3791 times
I'm sure Chriiss will be along later to put me right if I'm wrong, I'd have expected that there would be an aav to the right of toilet A.

Air behind water?

_________________
Verwood Handyman

Verwood Handyman


___________________________________________________________________

If you feel you have benefited from the Free advice given on the Forum, Please consider making a donation to UHM's Nominated charity, read all about it and donate here :

http://www.donnasdreamhouse.co.uk/



For this message the author wine~o has received gratitude : chrrris
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

 

 




Similar topics
   

Time zone: Europe/London [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Visit Solent plastics


 

 

 

News News Site map Site map SitemapIndex SitemapIndex RSS Feed RSS Feed Channel list Channel list
ultimatehandyman privacy policy

Contact

 

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group

phpBB SEO