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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:53 pm 
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I'm hoping it's a bit of a rhetorical question but I am currently tiling my whole flat here in Spain with some ceramic floor tiles (16kg/m2). I know this isn't best practice but the old tiles are (other than 2 tiles in 100 m2 of flat ) all intact and solidly down despite being 1968 - they are mortared into the concrete floor directly and are compressed together without graut and level so make a good base and are very difficult to get out.

So I've started and done half the flat of tiling over with good results (atleast for a complete beginner). The problem is I've encountered a few problems with the neighbours re noise from my project despite doing this only at work hours and asking them what hours are best, to which they just say "never" is best, etc. I'm legally obliged to notify the government (and pay 4% of the budget) which I didnt want to do (95% of people don't bother as its automatically approved and just an excuse to make money) but now the neighbours are complaining I thought I'd go down this route so I can get my certificate stating I can work 8am to 10pm without having to consider the neighbours as they don't want to play ball.

Anyway, the trouble is in the local regs I can get automatic permission to replace floor tiles (i.e. take the old ones up first), but laying floor tiles above old ones means I need to ask for a licence (more money and 3 month wait) after getting a structural surveyor to assess that the floor can hold the extra weight...am I right in seeing this as ridiculous at 16kg/m2...All the internet has is questions about 800kg/m2 swimming pools that can overload floors! The flat is steel and concrete structure, is there really a danger of overloading it with another layer of floor tiling?

It's funny how I can smash off all the old tiles at 8.00 to 22.00 everyday and lay my tiles as I wish if I pay my 100eur permission but if I just make noise cutting tiles and carefully place them over the existing ones without I cannot get permission without an architects report :(. Or is there something sensible behind this I'm missing?


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:25 pm 
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:dunno: Chances are the reason you've had no replies is that the regs in Spain are different.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:16 am 
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Thanks, yes, the regulations here are ridiculous, vast swathes of coast/countryside/historic towns have been littered with monstrous new structures yet the government seems to care on what type of tiling job I do in my 5th floor flat!

That said, although the regulations are different, the physics shouldn't be, so to rephrase the question, should I be worried about adding 20kg/m squared to a concrete floor built on steel/concrete girders? The load in the biggest room would be 240kg, of course perfectly spread...I'd imagine one book case or 3 humans could weigh more than that and apparently concrete structures can even hold cars no problem, so that's quite a safety margin...


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:51 am 
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Given that in the UK an allowance of 1.5Kn is allowed per square metre of floor (approx 150Kg) , I cant see how 20kg is any consequence.

I cant comment about the Spanish rules.

I pro tilers often mark out the whole area, so they then pay all the whole tiles for the total area and then go round and do all the cuts. Could you do that? -it may condense the noise into a shorter space of time.



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:22 am 
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Thanks for the reassurance. And here there are no wood floors so I presume concrete holds more. Even my 30 yr old car can transport 250kg of tile no problem in the boot so would hope a concrete/steel beamed floor could handle it!

Notch1 wrote:
I pro tilers often mark out the whole area, so they then pay all the whole tiles for the total area and then go round and do all the cuts. Could you do that? -it may condense the noise into a shorter space of time.


As I'm doing no joins for the whole flat I am essentially doing that - not starting in a corner but keeping the pattern from the previous room and as none of the walls are square I can then measure each individual piece to cut with the tiles already down as it is easier to measure accurately that way. Good idea though to do the two rooms cutting all at once before I go away for christmas for three weeks so then there won't be any further noise for a while.

My mate has a house out of town so worse case if there are some complaints when I buy the batch for cutting I'll drive them to his en route and cut the bloody things in his garden :)


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:24 pm 
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It is not a given what a floor can support (I am not familiar with girders and concrete blocks construction) but for each building it will be its specification. Different specs if if it is a high rise car park or flats. However, in a concrete reinforced building (steel rods and steel frames get embeded in concrete) the structure thins and lightens the higher up you go. Partly to protect against earthquakes and pointless in putting lots of weight high up (as that would need more support lower down and round you go). Do not expect to have different rules for the flat on the first flood because it has thicker beams for its concrete floors to the flat on the top floor which has much thinner beams. The permissible load would most likely (but not certainly) be the load for the weakest floor of the construction.

I am sure if your building was a library or a hospital or some other public building or a car park as you say would have been designed to a different specification. There is a probability that the "stupid" Spanish regulations work for the lowest common denominator of building construction for residential flats ;-)

I do hope you are not in an earthquake zone.



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:31 pm 
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Surely that extra weight would be of no consequence.

Its a residential dwelling right? That should allow for a lot of furniture like pianos and parties etc
For example: 20 people standing in a 4 x 5m room singing happy birthday would be 70kg/m2 (assuming each person weights 70kg)
The tiles are only 16kg/m2. Also its a distributed load, not point loads. That means total load is 86kg/m2 Still a way off the design load

The EU regulations on maximum live and dead load are for excessive deflection and cracking (I used to be a structural Engineer), not for catastrophic failure.

Given it's a concrete construction would want to be very thin not to allow for that load. Live or imposed loads in the UK are 1.5kn/m2 (I think the eurocode are 2kn/m2) but that comes with an excessive safety margin, so we used to multiply that by 1.6 and the actual weight of the floor by 1.4. The strength of the material used in construction is drummed down too.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:58 pm 
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DIY_Johnny wrote:
Surely that extra weight would be of no consequence.

I don't know Shirley and I am Shirley not an engineer[*]. I am not criticising you, I am just trying to make you figure out the correct answers for where you are not what BS I might be thinking of.

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Its a residential dwelling right? That should allow for a lot of furniture like pianos and parties etc
For example: 20 people standing in a 4 x 5m room singing happy birthday would be 70kg/m2 (assuming each person weights 70kg)
The tiles are only 16kg/m2. Also its a distributed load, not point loads. That means total load is 86kg/m2 Still a way off the design load.

It is a high construction residential dwelling, you are on the 5th floor, how many more floors above you? I can make no assumptions about load on the floor by assuming a person per square metre ... (lifts that take 5 for example will only take 3 like me or else they stop). But on your 16Kg of tiles per sq. metre add the weight of adhesive & grout for that area and multiply it by 100 sq m (circa 2 tons) as that is the added weight beyond the normal assumptions of furniture, piano, etc. which would be on that floor.
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The EU regulations on maximum live and dead load are for excessive deflection and cracking (I used to be a structural Engineer), not for catastrophic failure.

Given it's a concrete construction would want to be very thin not to allow for that load. Live or imposed loads in the UK are 1.5kn/m2 (I think the eurocode are 2kn/m2) but that comes with an excessive safety margin, so we used to multiply that by 1.6 and the actual weight of the floor by 1.4. The strength of the material used in construction is drummed down too.

I miss the arithmetic, but any EU construction regulations will apply to Spain from some time when it applied to join the EU or when it joined or whenever the rules came into force after it joined. Rules will mostly specify minimum requirements and different areas "may" have the right to apply stricter standards if they so wish (because of local circumstances). In any case EU legislation in this case is not retrospective as you say your building went up in 1968 and Spain was still under Franco let alone in the EU.

All in all, putting a grand piano in your flat would have a lot more load in the area it would be located but would weigh less than the two tons of weight you are adding to your apartment now. The thing is, you can add the two tons of weight and a grand piano and 20 guests, so the question is what was construction like circa 1968?

In another life whilst walking about, I was told a story that Napoleon had stopped his army from marching when they went over bridges, they had to walk. One too many bridges had collapsed because of the vibration caused by the march. So your 20 guests singing happy birthday may not be an issue, but your 20 guests doing the conga maybe a lot more of an issue.

Finally, as I detect a small hint of "Spanish bureaucracy, jobs for the architects bureaucrats and others, pay for this and for that for no reason" vs things are so much more straight forward in the UK. I have not got a clue about life in Spain. However a lot of bureaucracy exists in the UK too (look at the complicated rules regarding cladding materials vis a vis the Grenfell Tower fire) ... would be much simpler if only kind was allowed, similar to every building having the strength of a multistorey car park but max height limited to 5 levels and not exceeding X meters. Over the years I have become familiar with some building regulations, a bit rules for Houses under Multiple Occupancy, and by necessity with MOTs for cars, and I could not yet find one rule to say it was unnecessary but I could find many rules I did not like. The rules are there to protect people and "prevent" problems. So, all in all. Pay for a licence or something like that to remove tiles and similar, yes, it is probably money spinning bureaucracy but maybe it is balanced out by not being charged when you go to get rid of your old tiles or you pay for the disposal too. Load bearing checks must be too in order to get work for the now underemployed surveyors and so on. Whatever ... I don't know, I just don't automatically think the grass is greener on the other side.

I take it you are in earth quake prone zone as you kept quiet about it.

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[*] Just in case "Shirley = Shurely = Surely".

PS. Another anecdote, a library I knew had to put fairly recent books in storage. A 20 year old or so building could not safely have more books, and I have not seen any books doing the conga yet.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:22 am 
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@OchAye
just a thinking out loud on my part and sorting through the logic, being a public forum. End of the day, none of us know really know the construction of the flat and what happened in 1968. Actually i had a similar issue in my apartment. I wanted to screed in my bathroom and lay new tiles. 50mm screed was about 60kg/m2 as far as I could remember. i decided against it as I had no clue what size RC bars were used. It was a hollow core floor construction 1932. I decided against it due to weight but was playing it safe. Many other builders just went and did it and didn't bother with lightweight screed nor employ an engineer. In fact when i discussed it with a few, the builders I have met weren't familiar on the moments and sheer force calculations.That is ultimately important not the actual weight

so 1 person standing on a plank with supports 1m apart maybe fine but 10 people (equal weight) standing on the same plank with supports 10m would not be, even though it's the same weight per m run. :wink:

If the OP wants reassurance he could employ an engineer. ....or just go for lino :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:59 am 
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DIY_Johnny wrote:
@OchAye
just a thinking out loud on my part and sorting through the logic, being a public forum.


To top it all up I did not pay attention to the User names and I thought you were the OP. ::b Really sorry to get you mixed up.

At a guess I would say it is OK but if it is not then what? I also would be curious to figure out why those rules exist beyond providing some employment.

Next time I must watch more to whom I respond :wtf: ::b


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:45 am 
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Thanks for replies

I'm aware of UK beauracracy, I lived there for the first 27 years of my life, and I really like life in Spain. Theres beuaracracy here but the culture is to ignore it... I talked to a building firm and they laughed at my question and why I would get a licence. They said that 300kg/m squared is minimum but thats new build and older buildings are better built, not worse because they didn't understand so much how to calculate it so finely so just over built it. They reckoned 600kg/m squared should be OK and indeed know people who have put swimming pools on their terraces of 60cm depth (although thats not recommended!).

The flat is 90 sqm and 20 of that (kitchen and bathroom) is already tiled over what was original so for the 70sq m I'm adding something like 1.1 ton to the whole floor over 10 steel reinforced concrete joists.

Much as people here aren't that safety conscious I think I'll carry on. End of the day I have very little furniture and am not going to buy some grand pianos and hold a party with 400 people..even so I think it would still hold, if something so simple could crash a concrete building in a good state you would hear about this all the time, instead the media/builders have never heard of a collapse ever.

To answer the questions; Not in an earthquake zone and im 5th floor which is top floor, just terrace above (which noone has put a swimming pool on ;)



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:11 pm 
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D215YQ wrote:

The flat is 90 sqm and 20 of that (kitchen and bathroom) is already tiled over what was original so for the 70sq m I'm adding something like 1.1 ton to the whole floor over 10 steel reinforced concrete joists.

Much as people here aren't that safety conscious I think I'll carry on. End of the day I have very little furniture and am not going to buy some grand pianos and hold a party with 400 people..even so I think it would still hold, if something so simple could crash a concrete building in a good state you would hear about this all the time, instead the media/builders have never heard of a collapse ever.
)


that weight is insignificant on that design .

From my days as a structural engineer our case studies found that many older buildings were much stronger than necessary. With the newer design codes, use of structural design programs (Finite element analysis etc) engineers are much more accurate in designing structures. Other aspects make structures stronger in reality than on paper. Dead loads are multiplied by 1.4 and live loads are multiplied by 1.6 as a safety margin, reinforcement bars diameters are rounded up and spacing is rounded down to a sensible spacings . Also an optimal design might call for a thick beam at the center and thinner ones near the edges. Similarly with columns. True design means they would most likely be different sizes as although implied loads many be uniform but the moments of force (i.e. bending stress) isn't. So in reality you pick the biggest beam and use that uniformly across the building. This allows (1) no possibility of using the wrong beam in the wrong place and (2) manufacturing or insitu casting uniform .

Not advice as such but rather things to consider when designing RC buildings


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