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 Post subject: Re: Shed Building
PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 11:56 am 
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jape wrote:
Mark-J wrote:
Thanks Jape

I think you're right in that the main sticking point here is scalpings or no scalpings. I was thinking about this yesterday and came to the conclusion that if I did use scalpings, at the very least I don't think they will cause any harm (as long as the ground is well compacted).

I have decided I am going for a wooden shed. My biggest concern was the wood lice my neighbour mentioned, but it seems after listening here and doing a little research that they (a) only inhabit damp places for the moisture and (b) they can be controlled with certain pesticides


My point is the scalpings will do more harm than good. Do you really think the sand will sit in suspended animation on top of the gravel for ever? Waste of time and money and not required if ground is compacted. Where the f*ck did people get the idea to use them under slabs? Instead of slab maybe. Bah.

People lived in wooden structures for ever and when they needed patching they did it, it's called living. Ordinary people that couldn't afford or care to slaughter and control other people didn't want or need draughty stone buildings made by slaves. Try chipping one brick out of a rock. Only big-headed psychopaths needed castles. 'Bricks' for peasants were made of mud, perfectly fine, or cobbled flint at best. Then we got another form of slavery called industrial revolution when people were moved off land, trees chopped to make fields and the trees used to make kiln-fired bricks for the slaves to live, if that's what you call it, in brick rabbit hutches. And we started dragging up more and more coal and destroyed for ever the carbon balance of the Land. Only a hundred and fifty years ago.

The difference in wood today is it is sh*t. Scrawny chopped up crap, fast growth weak crap, covered or impregnated here and there with poisonous polymers, made from more coal and gas. It makes the wood structures more waterproof so they last longer. Well not as long as using the right timber but longer than if just sawn and erected.

Wood is only superficially more aesthetic than blocks or bricks or stone or render or whatever. It has a romantic appeal. BUT it is not really more expensive than 'breeze blocks' because to do the same job as wood structures they need render and cavities and deeper footings and plaster and paint to make them look nice. It's a personal choice. Do what you want. Just make your mind up.

Thanks for the information Jape

I'm going to go for a wooden shed. They look nicer and that's what I feel most comfortable working with. It also seems like it'll be a more interesting project for me


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 Post subject: Re: Shed Building
PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 12:03 pm 
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Dave54 wrote:
As far as building timber sheds is concerned, my thoughts are pretty well the same as B-A's a few posts above.

As far as bases for concrete goes. A little story.
When my late MIL bought a cottage near here, it had an ancient "one up one down" cottage on the side, that was, until that time, still lived in by a very old lady. The place had been "modernised" with an upstairs floor at some time in Victorian days, and it had no bathroom or kitchen as such. The shell was (and is) stone with cob and rubble infill, and it has a round fireplace and chimney attached to the building, which I believe makes it several hundred years old. To get to the point, the floor was a very thin skim of cement over a beaten earth floor. We expected to find a stone floor underneath, but there wasn't one. The inch or so of skim was hardly cracked at all, and hadn't sunk, but must have been there for some time.
Not suggesting that is in any way the "right" way of doing things, but it shows that well beaten earth doesn't move much.

TBH I reckon it's all getting over-thought here. There are pros and cons of each and every way of doing things, and rarely just one "right" way.
Somebody will always come along here or elsewhere and say "But you don't want to do that!"
Or "I'd have done it like this"

Best to just make your plans and stick with 'em IMHO.

Agreed.

Interesting story, and makes me think the 4" concrete base will be enough whether or not I use scalpings


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 Post subject: Re: Shed Building
PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 12:33 pm 
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Final questions just so we are clear.

What kind of scalpings? Just what are they do you think and just why are you so intent on them? A meaningless word and a pointless usage you have picked up somewhere and never really explained against any of my arguments.

You are going 'ready-mix' I think? So tell them what use and dimensions and ask them to advise strength and slump. They may state you don't need reo.


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 Post subject: Re: Shed Building
PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 12:41 pm 
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jape wrote:
Final questions just so we are clear.

What kind of scalpings? Just what are they do you think and just why are you so intent on them? A meaningless word and a pointless usage you have picked up somewhere and never really explained against any of my arguments.

You are going 'ready-mix' I think? So tell them what use and dimensions and ask them to advise strength and slump. They may state you don't need reo.


For all it costs I'd put some mesh down tbh.


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 Post subject: Re: Shed Building
PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 12:59 pm 
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Agreed, was just warning Mark now he is close to doing it that the ready-mix guys may say don't need reo or offer plastic fibre reo. Different purpose. Mesh central in slab, i.e. supported on bits of conc. 50mm up. Makes laying concrete in a bit faffy but all do-able especially as ready-mix is wetter than I would mix.


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 Post subject: Re: Shed Building
PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 2:58 pm 
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jape wrote:
Final questions just so we are clear.

What kind of scalpings? Just what are they do you think and just why are you so intent on them? A meaningless word and a pointless usage you have picked up somewhere and never really explained against any of my arguments.

You are going 'ready-mix' I think? So tell them what use and dimensions and ask them to advise strength and slump. They may state you don't need reo.

40mm to dust

Scalpings provide additional rigidity to the base and provide a buffer between the earth and the concrete. I don't want to lay the concrete directly onto the earth. Even if it's got an inch of sand and dpm. I'm thinking of going with 3" of scalpings


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 Post subject: Re: Shed Building
PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 3:41 pm 
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Mark-J wrote:
jape wrote:
Final questions just so we are clear.

What kind of scalpings? Just what are they do you think and just why are you so intent on them? A meaningless word and a pointless usage you have picked up somewhere and never really explained against any of my arguments.

You are going 'ready-mix' I think? So tell them what use and dimensions and ask them to advise strength and slump. They may state you don't need reo.

40mm to dust

Scalpings provide additional rigidity to the base and provide a buffer between the earth and the concrete. I don't want to lay the concrete directly onto the earth. Even if it's got an inch of sand and dpm. I'm thinking of going with 3" of scalpings


You're off your nut doing that mate,that's another 3or 4 inches of soil you've to remove and a good few tonne of type-1 you've to wheelbarrow in for no benefit to yourself whatsoever.
When we dig out house foundations or extension foundations we never waste money or time on putting down type-1 scalpings. Pouring onto sound,compact undisturbed earth is fine.



For this message the author steviejoiner74 has received gratitude : Dave54
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 Post subject: Re: Shed Building
PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 4:41 pm 
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steviejoiner74 wrote:
Mark-J wrote:
jape wrote:
Final questions just so we are clear.

What kind of scalpings? Just what are they do you think and just why are you so intent on them? A meaningless word and a pointless usage you have picked up somewhere and never really explained against any of my arguments.

You are going 'ready-mix' I think? So tell them what use and dimensions and ask them to advise strength and slump. They may state you don't need reo.

40mm to dust

Scalpings provide additional rigidity to the base and provide a buffer between the earth and the concrete. I don't want to lay the concrete directly onto the earth. Even if it's got an inch of sand and dpm. I'm thinking of going with 3" of scalpings


You're off your nut doing that mate,that's another 3or 4 inches of soil you've to remove and a good few tonne of type-1 you've to wheelbarrow in for no benefit to yourself whatsoever.
When we dig out house foundations or extension foundations we never waste money or time on putting down type-1 scalpings. Pouring onto sound,compact undisturbed earth is fine.


I was going to say, that from what I've seen there are going to be a lot of buildings sinking into the ground then!
I can't see a big slab like that going anywhere on decent compact soil. The ground loading pressure is nothing. It's not as if it's on a slope or on the edge of a drop off.

I've just thought of another mate who ran a couple of readymix strips half a mile across fields for access to his place. He got somebody to scrape the grass off the strips with a JCB, and poured the concrete straight in with some edging boards to stop it going everywhere. He said to me at the time, that he thought it was soft in some places but they'd risk it as a minimum fuss job. Tractors and all sorts used that and it was fine.


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 Post subject: Re: Shed Building
PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 4:45 pm 
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Ok, no quarry scalpings

I've already dug to an average depth of 6" or 7" inches, but that's ok because I can now start spreading the earth and levelling it all

So

Concrete 4"
DPM
Builder's Sand = 1"
Packed Earth

Saving on the scalpings I may go for a 5" concrete base - or is that not needed?

EDIT: "In many slabs, steel mesh has also been used as a crude (and often ineffective) method of crack control." http://www.pavingexpert.com/reinfrc1.htm

The author does seem to note a difference between wire mesh and iron mesh


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 Post subject: Re: Shed Building
PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 5:31 pm 
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4 inch is ample for a shed base.


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 Post subject: Re: Shed Building
PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 5:59 pm 
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I'm dropping out Mark. Told you all I know and all you need.

That paving site is a bloody good site but you are not interpreting correctly just looking for negative arguments. Read elsewhere on it and he also says what I have mentioned many times, no 'scalpings' required if soil is compacted well. Also the steel in yours is not to stop cracking. It is reinforcement.

All concrete slabs crack in one way or another. It can be alleviated with both compression and expansion joints and if yours was bigger I would suggest that but for your purpose you have all the info you require for a one piece four inch concrete slab shed base.
Dig to Australia and fill it with any sh*t you find instructed on a website somewhere and you are wasting time and money. An inch or so was all you needed.

Good luck and enjoy.


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 Post subject: Re: Shed Building
PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 7:05 pm 
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Ok thanks for all your help Jape, I appreciate it


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 Post subject: Re: Shed Building
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 6:52 am 
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Here are two place where I found out about using quarry scalpings (I think gravel is another word for quarry scalpings):

2: Level Off the area
A concrete requires 3 inches (7.5 cm) of compacted hardcore (all-in ballast or other crushed rubble/gravel) underneath the 3 inch concrete layer.

3: Create a Levelled Hardcore
...spread a layer of well compacted hardcore (all-in ballast or crushed gravel) and cover with a liberal amount of sand.

From this site: http://www.gardenbuildingsdirect.co.uk/ ... ing-a-base

And here, at 2m 23seconds he's puttings some form of scalpings or gravel on top of compacted earth
http://www.gardenbuildingsdirect.co.uk/ ... ing-a-base

So I'm not trying to be stubborn, I'm just new to it all and I'm not sure. Some say don't use scalpings others say to do so


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 Post subject: Re: Shed Building
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 8:02 am 
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Mark, at the end of the day this is a garden shed slab not an industrial premise supporting multiple ton machines!
If the ground is undisturbed & solid then it will probably be fine to pour concrete directly onto after laying sand / DPM. If you are set on a subbase material - I would just put down hardcore type 1 prior. Just phone TP - they will deliver it to your door along with your reinforcing mesh ready for when you concrete!
https://www.travisperkins.co.uk/MOT-Typ ... g/p/938251

P.S. If you still can't get over your fetish for scalpings then just order them...I'm sure it will do no harm as long as you whack it flat & tight!


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 Post subject: Re: Shed Building
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 8:33 am 
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Thank you for the advice

The ground where I'm digging out the base does seem to be quite compact. I think I will dig down a few more inches to make sure, and I'll forget the scalpings.


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