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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:23 pm 
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Okay, so currently the hot and cold water pipes to both my kitchen and bathroom are underground in the floor screed. I have a direct, vented system. Just a header tank in the loft and a cylinder in the airing cupboard with an immersion heater. No gas where I live and my house is so small I'm quite happy with my two electric panel heaters and fan heater in the bathroom.

Anyway, a few days ago it occured to me that the cold feed from the rising main to the kitchen sink had started leaking, underground, in the screed. Not something I really wanted to happen, I just try to look on the bright side and tell myself that at least it didn't happen when I had completely decorated, put in a new kitchen, bathroom etc.

I knew there was always a chance that this could happen however I didn't feel too worried because as far as I can tell the pipes underground have been lagged in some sort of plastic backed felt insulation material, something like this I believe: http://www.wickes.co.uk/Wickes-Felt-Pipe-Sleeving-Pack-3/p/210456. The place was built in the early 80s and the pipework had lasted this long, so I wasn't too concerned.

The fact that one of the pipes has started leaking has made me want to replace all of the underground pipework. I plan on doing quite a bit to this place, making it a really nice home for myself, it's the first house I've ever bought and once I've done everything I want to the place I don't want to have to go digging up concrete because of another leak.

So my plan is to just re-route all of the pipework above ground. Where the rising main currently tees off and goes underground, I was going to simply tee off in the loft, run it across to the kitchen and drop it down in the corner, can't see that there would be any issues with that. Where the hot and cold feeds for the bathroom exit the header tank and cylinder and make their way toward the ground, I was simply going to cut them off, put in a few tees and drain cocks and then run them round, through a couple of walls and into the bathroom, same as they currently do really, just above ground and entering the bathroom from the other side to where they currently do.

The issue that I'm struggling with is the hot water for the kitchen. I don't want to run the pipework on the surface in the kitchen immediately, because this would mean running them across the cooker space, which I'm not too keen on doing. Moving the cooker space isn't really an option, and I don't fancy digging up the concrete to re-lay the pipework in conduit, so I figure that the most straightforward but also potentially unsuitable option is to run the hot feed for the kitchen sink across the loft, just like the cold feed from the mains.

To do this, where the hot water cylinder currently tees off, with the hot feed for the bathroom and kitchen sink going down and the expansion pipe going up, I would need to tee off again, in the loft in what is currently just the expansion pipe. This is where I begin to feel unsure about the whole thing and I have various questions about doing this that I am hoping to get some advice on.

First of all, would there for any reason be an issue with teeing off on the expansion pipe? It is my understadning that the water does rise up this pipe, just not all the way. What I'm really wondering is, would the expansion pipe still be able to serve its purpose if the hot feed for the kitchen started all the way up in the loft?

Secondly, will doing this provide me with an inadequate amount of hot water pressure? I don't feel the need for a great deal of hot water pressure in my kitchen, I very rarely even use the hot water in there. Even still, will doing it this way lower the level of pressure so much that it would basically be pointless? I'm also concerned that this kind of set up would be very prone to airlocks, some of my work mates have said this is likely to happen, as the water will be running down the pipe faster than it will be rising back up, some have said it should be okay, although pressure will be very low.

The distance between the top of my hot water cylinder and bottom of the header tank is about 657mm. This is approximately the point at which I would ideally like to tee off from the expansion pipe for the hot feed to the kitchen, however this would mean having the pipework underneath the loft insulation which I would rather not do. After this point the expansion pipe continues to rise about 740mm before it begins to bend round and go towards the header tank.

The hot feed for the kitchen would run across the loft by about 2800mm from the point at which I would tee off from the expansion pipe. When I come to put in a new kitchen I was thinking I would run the pipework all the way to the floor, so that I could easily access any joints by removing kickboards if need be, save me having to remove an entire kitchen unit if something did start leaking. So basically it would then run down to the floor 2400mm, come across towards the kitchen sink and then go up towards the tap. A much longer journey for the water than what it currently is.

Also, I was planning on running parts of the new pipework in speedfit, in the places where it wouldn't be visible. I'm capable enough of running the pipework in copper and doing the occassional bend, but I would rather use speedfit where I can to make life a little bit easier. However, would using speedfit, particularly in the case of the kitchen sink, reduce the flow and consequently make the pressure to the kitchen hot tap even worse? I was going to start running the pipe in plastic just after it tees off up the expansion pipe, I thought this might be a good place to stick a full bore isolation valve.

If you've taken the time to read all of that then thank you! I would highly appreciate any and all advice I can get on this matter, I don't want to go an run a load of new pipework if it isn't going to work properly. If there's anybody that is able to help me, but would like extra details or measurements please do not hesistate to ask me, I'll do all that I can to help you help me.

Whatever I have to end up doing, I really can't wait until it is done because right now everytime I want to use the kitchen sink or fill up the header tank I have to turn the stop cock on and then off again when I'm done, bloody old thing is quite stiff. The leak isn't huge, but it's bad enough to allow a wet patch to build up slowly if the water is left on.

But yeah, thank you to all that have read my essay!


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:58 pm 
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First of all, would there for any reason be an issue with teeing off on the expansion pipe?

Yes.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:04 pm 
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wine~o wrote:
First of all, would there for any reason be an issue with teeing off on the expansion pipe?

Yes.


Why would this be?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:07 pm 
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RJW91 wrote:
wine~o wrote:
First of all, would there for any reason be an issue with teeing off on the expansion pipe?

Yes.


Why would this be?


From your post (if I've read it correctly) you have a gravity system... sooo you'll be sucking in air and/or water.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:15 pm 
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wine~o wrote:
RJW91 wrote:
wine~o wrote:
First of all, would there for any reason be an issue with teeing off on the expansion pipe?

Yes.


Why would this be?


From your post (if I've read it correctly) you have a gravity system... sooo you'll be sucking in air and/or water.


Okay, just so I'm clear,is it basically a case of, if I were to have a tee in the expansion pipe, around 740mm below the point at which the pipe bends around and makes its way towards the header tank, it would suck air in from where the expansion pipe finishes in the header tank?

Is there a minimum distance between the top of the expansion pipe and where you're able to tee off for a hot water feed pipe? Can you realistically only tee off after the pipe comes out from the top of the cylinder and bends round?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:25 pm 
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Pics of your set up and or at least a diagram please...

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:57 pm 
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Got a few pictures that I hope might give you a clearer idea of what I'm working with. Apologies in advance if this doesn't help or make things clearer.

Edit: I meant to have the pictures posted in the opposite order. Don't know it that would neccessarily help, but yeah I'll remember how that works for the future!


Attachments:
File comment: Here's another view of where all of the pipework comes up into the loft space.

On the left is the cold feed for the bathroom, to the right of that is the cold feed for the hot water cylinder and to the right is that is the hot feed/expansion pipe, where you can see it going towards the header tank, which you can probably make out by seeing the black plastic insulation jacket.

You might also just be able to make out the rising main on the right and see where it's going round to the far side of the header tank.

IMG_1209.jpg
IMG_1209.jpg [ 96.94 KiB | Viewed 427 times ]
File comment: Here is where all of the pipework in the previous pictures enters the loft space.

On the far right we have the cold fee for the bathroom. To the left of that we have the cold feed to the hot water cylinder.

To the far left we have the rising main, going towards the header tank. Where this comes up above the insulation is where I was planning on teeing off the cold water mains and sending it across the loft towards the kitchen for a drop down.

To the right of the rising main is the expansion pipe coming from the hot water cylinder. Same with the rising main, I was hoping to tee off as this just comes above the insulation and send a pipe across the loft towards the kitchen as a hot feed for the kitchen sink.

IMG_1208.jpg
IMG_1208.jpg [ 112.56 KiB | Viewed 427 times ]
File comment: Here we have the top of the airing cupboard.

On the left is the rising main, in the middle is the hot feed/expansion pipe coming out from the top of the hot water cylinder and to the left is the cold feed to the bathroom.

Where the hot feed/expansion pipe currently tees off I wanted to add another tee going up the pipe, which I would use as a hot feed for the kitchen.

IMG_1207.jpg
IMG_1207.jpg [ 110.06 KiB | Viewed 427 times ]
File comment: Okay so in this picture we have the rising main, where you can see how it goes up towards the header tank and into the screed and towards the kitchen sink, where it has leaked.

In the middle we have the current hot feed from the cylinder which is just above these pipes. As mentioned in my original post I plan on cutting this pipe back a little and running it across the wall, into another cupboard and then into the bathroom.

On the right is the cold feed from the header tank, which I plan to also cut off and run alongside the hot feed for the bathroom as described previously.

IMG_1206.jpg
IMG_1206.jpg [ 78.79 KiB | Viewed 427 times ]
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:41 pm 
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"To the right of the rising main is the expansion pipe coming from the hot water cylinder. Same with the rising main, I was hoping to tee off as this just comes above the insulation and send a pipe across the loft towards the kitchen as a hot feed for the kitchen sink."

never going to work. you should have a pipe coming out of the top of your HW cylinder, you'll need to trace that and see where they go to find a suitable point to Tee off.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:46 pm 
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like this. tee must be below the base of the stored water.


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conventional system.jpg
conventional system.jpg [ 37.03 KiB | Viewed 359 times ]

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