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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:07 pm 
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Hi all,

New to DIY and need some advice about putting up shelves...
I pulled apart an old wardrobe to make an "office" area in my bedroom, comprising a long tressle table (done) and 2 wall mounted shelves. The shelves are pretty long and heavy. They are made of melamine-coated particle board. They measure about 180 x 40cm and each weighs about 10kg. They are to be fixed to a victorian brick wall.
Does this sound like too much weight to fix to a wall? If not, what materials and tools would I need to put them up? Eg, uprights, brackets, heavy duty wall plugs (what size?) and would I need a hammer drill or could I get away with using a regular power drill?

Many thanks in advance for your suggestions.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:21 pm 
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You are lucky, you have a genuine brick wall. :thumbright: (Most houses now have a plasterboard wall)

I would use upside down "London brackets" (Looks like an L" and 1 1/2 inch 8 screws and red rawlplugs 5.5m masonry bit)
Spaced one at almost each end and two in between.

You may also want to consider "twin slot uprights" * as these once fixed have adjustable "mounts" so you can change the height of the shelf if you want to.

* White square tube with slots, old libraries and wh smith used to use them for their shelves.

Others may say 2inch 10 screws and brown plugs :dunno:

As for drill no question, hammer drill, why make work when you can make life easier.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:30 pm 
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Good advice above there. Personally I would use brown plugs and the larger screws. The adjustable brackets mentioned while ugly are great for offices.



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:47 pm 
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If using bracket type shelves you will need to avoid sag with melamine covered board over your width. This would mean three brackets on the wall to give a central support. You have to think of the load stress when the shelves are loaded up as well.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:56 pm 
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someone-else wrote:
As for drill no question, hammer drill, why make work when you can make life easier.


Just the fact that I don't own a hammer drill, so would prefer to avoid buying one for a one-off job :cb Maybe I can borrow one from somewhere.

Ok, thanks all for the comments. I thought perhaps this would be too much weight on the wall but you guys don't seem too concerned :huray:


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:18 pm 
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Buy a hammer drill, don't borrow any tools, you may break it / them.

You could try a cheap one Click here

and you say for a one off job, one job soon turn to two, then three

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:48 pm 
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someone-else wrote:
I would use upside down "London brackets" (Looks like an L" and 1 1/2 inch 8 screws and red rawlplugs 5.5m masonry bit)....
Others may say 2inch 10 screws and brown plugs :dunno:

Rorschach wrote:
Personally I would use brown plugs and the larger screws....

So would I - #8 x 2in (4.0 x 50mm) screws in red plugs have completely inadequate pull-out resistance for anything that wide - I'd be looking for something like #9 or #10 x 3 to 4in (.5 or 5.0 x 75 to 100mm) in brown plugs (7mm hole unless the masonry is very soft, in which case 6.5mm)

dewaltdisney wrote:
If using bracket type shelves you will need to avoid sag with melamine covered board over your width. This would mean three brackets on the wall to give a central support. You have to think of the load stress when the shelves are loaded up as well.

...and if you want to quantify the amount of sag then keying the details into The Sagulator would be a good idea. Personally I'd be looking for a support every 400 to 600mm and no more (especially on Spur-type systems) and also to add a hardwood lipping to the front edge which will stiffen things up a bit.

someone-else wrote:
You may also want to consider "twin slot uprights" * as these once fixed have adjustable "mounts" so you can change the height of the shelf if you want to.

* White square tube with slots, old libraries and wh smith used to use them for their shelves.

The actual trade name for these is "Spur shelving" although these days there are many copies such as Aspect on the market. W H Smith used to use them? Pretty much everyone in retail still uses them somewhere along the line from supermarkets (check the gondolas) to Next because they are simply the most versatile shelving system ever produced. A good source of Spur-type shelving (actually made by Aspect - not as well-finished or heavy as the original Spur, but nevertheless perfectly serviceable for domestic use) is Ironmongery Direct. ID also sell the slightly heavier Elfa system. Don't like the colour? Spray it a different colour with car touch-up paint, radiator paint, etc

Spur type systems work best where the uprights extend upwards from the shelving and where the load is spread over many fixings. As an example at home I have some Aspect shelving, 2m high x 2.3m long, fixed onto a double-skinned skin (so 25mm) plasterboard stud wall. There are ten 51mm "umbrella" fixings per upright, the 6 uprights (therefore 60 fixings) are on approximately 400mm centres (give or take). The shelving itself is 300mm wide and there are six shelves. That little lot comfortably holds circa 250kg of tools, fastenings, etc and shows not sign of collapsing just yet

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:01 pm 
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Job and Knock wrote:
So would I - #8 x 2in (4.0 x 50mm) screws in red plugs have completely inadequate pull-out resistance for anything that wide - I'd be looking for something like #9 or #10 x 3 to 4in (.5 or 5.0 x 75 to 100mm) in brown plugs (7mm hole unless the masonry is very soft, in which case 6.5mm)


:shock: Really? Not wanting to argue, but 4 inch screw, it is only holding a thin metal bracket up, it's not as if it was being mounted to the ceiling, all the pulling force is "across" the screw not pulling it down (put of the wall) if it were in the ceiling pulling down then maybe a 3 inch

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:47 pm 
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someone-else wrote:
Job and Knock wrote:
So would I - #8 x 2in (4.0 x 50mm) screws in red plugs have completely inadequate pull-out resistance for anything that wide - I'd be looking for something like #9 or #10 x 3 to 4in (.5 or 5.0 x 75 to 100mm) in brown plugs (7mm hole unless the masonry is very soft, in which case 6.5mm)


:shock: Really? Not wanting to argue, but 4 inch screw, it is only holding a thin metal bracket up, it's not as if it was being mounted to the ceiling, all the pulling force is "across" the screw not pulling it down (put of the wall) if it were in the ceiling pulling down then maybe a 3 inch

I wonder how much pulling force there is on the top screws of the bracket, when a 10kg shelf, gets umpteen kilograms of some operculist's collection of Victorian ornamental cast iron coal hole covers dumped on the front edge of the shelf. . .

I'll take some overkill in the size of the fixings every time thanks!



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:22 pm 
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Victorian house, I would worry the walls aren't even 4" thick :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:31 pm 
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Rorschach wrote:
Victorian house, I would worry the walls aren't even 4" thick :lol:


To be honest I'd be more worried with the modern magic dust and matchstick construction houses. Screw something weighing 10kg to the wall, and the whole house falls over. . . :shock:


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:19 pm 
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ok
i would use brown plugs 6.5mm or 1/4" masonery bit
brown plug takes 38mm off screw
so assuming the bracket is say 10mm plus the 38 in the plug thats a 45-50mm 4.5-5mm screw or 1 3/4-2" no 8 or 10 screw drill the hole 5-8mm deeper than the plug

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:15 am 
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Victorian plasterwork can be of quite varying quality which may very well play a part. I've seen plaster thickness anything from half an inch to two inches thick in which case j&k's suggestion of a four inch screw doesn't seem overkill.
At the same time I've seen plaster so weak and soft that screwing a bracket onto the wall will see that bracket sinking into the plaster as the screw is tightened effectively meaning it can never be a firm fixing. In some cases we have had to resort to fitting a baton or board to the wall and fixing the brackets to that.



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:55 pm 
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someone-else wrote:
:shock: Really? Not wanting to argue, but 4 inch screw, it is only holding a thin metal bracket up, it's not as if it was being mounted to the ceiling, all the pulling force is "across" the screw not pulling it down (put of the wall) if it were in the ceiling pulling down then maybe a 3 inch

Then why respond? In variable masonry, or masonry of unknown quality, it is normal practice to overspecify - red or yellow plugs may be alright for plastic conduit, but they won't work with larger/longer screws. In addition, as Grendel points out Victorian plasterwork can be very thick (1in/25mm is not uncommon) and you need to get both the plug and the screw well into the masonry for it to work because plaster has no load-bearing strength at all. That is why joiners, sign fixers, etc tend to use brown plugs and something like 4.5 or 5.0mm (or at times even 6.0mm) screws to carry the load. When you start to install wider shelves there is always the possibility that they will be overloaded and that the greatest weight/force will be applied to the outer edge of the shelf. The load being applied is therefore not only vertical, but also diagonal to the wall, and to resist the tendency to pull-out you either need a very large number of smaller fastenings over a long run (e.g. my 2000mm Spur-type rails with 10 fixings per rail - so the manufacturer is obviously aware of the load per fixing issue, I'd say) or you need to go to longer screws which should the shelf be overloaded will tend to pivot upwards in the hole and wedge themselves in. That turns a pull-out which would occur with shorter, thinner (4.0 to 4.5 x 40 to 50mm screws) into a more controlled failure (which you tend to get with heavier 5.0 x 75 to 100mm screws).

I've been at this game enough decades now to have fixed a very large number of shelves, counters, wall displays, sign boxes, etc in and on shops, bars and restaurants where the consequences of a failure could be disasterous. Personally, I've never knowingly had a failure. But I've seen (and corrected) a few outcomes where installers either because of stupidity or incompetence have cut corners and under specified fixings and fastenings with the resulting failure injuring someone (and if you want to know a 40kg light box dropping 6ft onto a member of the public can cause quite some injuries)

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:43 pm 
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Job and Knock wrote:
I've been at this game enough decades now to have fixed a very large number of shelves, counters, wall displays, sign boxes, etc in and on shops, bars and restaurants


It figures.

But this is a house, its not a bar or a restaurant, its not a wall display or a sign either.

I would agree in such premises as you mention and such items as you mention as staff always seem to have the attitude of "I don't care" but this is still a house and its still a shelf, I can't see the OP stacking it so there is no space with heavy (full) beer bottles, you also no doubt have an impact wrench / driver (call it what you will) which makes life easier, the OP doesn't even have a hammer drill and you suggest he uses 4 inch 10's or bigger.

As I said, i am not looking to argue, I am just looking at it from the OP's POV, not a commercial installation POV

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Which is correct? Metre or Meter? Click the link. to find out more.

No such thing as "Thou shalt put this wire here, Thou shalt put that wire there" .............Take a picture BEFORE you do the job.

If gloom had a voice, it would be me. :mrgreen:

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