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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:37 pm 
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Hi
I installed a pump for hot water only for the whole house, taken directly from the hot water cylinder. Cold is mains set at 2 bar via PRV.
The pump noise is fine but feels vibration in the floorboards when standing on them where the hot water pipes run under. Also all hot copper pipes in and out of pump feels vibration and not smooth when I touch them. I have spoken to pump manufacturer and followed installation guidelines. I have rubber mat then concrete slab then another rubber mat where the pump sits. I have used slow bend elbows. The plumping is all copper no plastic either compression or solder. Hot Cylinder Temp below 60degC.
The hot and cold pipes run under floor boards rested on joists which I believe is normal. I did put lagging where ever I reached between pipes and joists.
The cold water as said is main reduced to 2 bar has its pipes running under floor boards too but causes no vibration at all. But the pumped hot water does cause vibration and doesn't feel smooth flow.
Is there any way to get rid of this vibration? Or is it something to live with?


Last edited by yartin on Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:53 pm 
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Try a piece of foam under the rubber mat?

Mike

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:16 pm 
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London mike 61 wrote:
Try a piece of foam under the rubber mat?

Mike


I have heavy duty foam on floor board and rubber on concrete slab. There is no vibration at that part of the floorboards under the pump.

I now believe the source of the vibration is the pipes around the pump, in from cylinder and out of pump and even the cylinder overflow pipe which goes up to loft tank, when I touch them all same flow is not smooth and feels vibrating.
Could the pump be faulty?!


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:02 pm 
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I emailed pump manufacturer again today, they said: "In terms of the pump installation it sounds like you have done everything you can to try and limit the noise. You are increasing the pressure of water so we would expect there to be some vibration in the pipes."

It would have been different if it was concrete floor but airing cupboards and hot water cylinders are on first floors. Or more than twice the price for Megaflow but too late for me. Would I recommend pumps? It does great job relatively cheap but not sure.

I am lucky I use mains for the cold water and not another pump, otherwise more vibration every time turn the cold and when flushing WCs.

BTW the pump is the most renowned and expensive brand.

So it is the case to live with it.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:21 pm 
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Are the pipes securely clipped to the joists, walls, etc, for the whole system? If they're loose, I'd expect them to rattle about a fair bit.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:46 pm 
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chrrris wrote:
Are the pipes securely clipped to the joists, walls, etc, for the whole system? If they're loose, I'd expect them to rattle about a fair bit.


Yes all secured, I was repairing the floorboards so all lifted, and all pipes are fixed secure and no movement whatsoever, very solid fix , I even put laggings. No rattling in pipes. I turned pump while floorboards out and pipes don't budge at all.

I am now in the conclusion that vibration are by the pump in and out pipes is being propagated to pipes under floorboards which are rested on joists so you would feel the flow when I am standing on these boards otherwise you don't feel it. Does this make sense?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:34 pm 
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yartin wrote:
pipes under floorboards which are rested on joists so you would feel the flow when I am standing on these boards otherwise you don't feel it. Does this make sense?

The pipes should be clipped to the joists, not resting on them and the floorboards shouldn't be resting on the pipes at all. Difficult to say exactly how much practical difference this would make to the vibration you're feeling through the floorboards without being there to see how it is at the moment -- definitely "some difference", but possibly not enough to warrant lifting all the boards, possibly deepening the notches (in accordance with the rules on notching joists, obv), and relaying the pipework. It may be easier to put up with the vibration, at least until you have to change the pipework for some other reason.

All locally pumped water has some amount of vibration, as the output from the impeller has peaks and troughs, although modern pumps do have all sorts of fancy computer-designed channels that the water flows through to minimise this (looks a bit like a wobbly maze of channels etched into a plastic disc inside the impeller housing). If everything is done right, pipework wise, you have a decent modern pump, and the floor is structurally sound, then it shouldn't really be so bad that you can feel vibrations through the floor. But you do often find, especially in older installs, that the pipework is resting, unsecured, on the joists and floorboards are resting on the tops of the pipes. So the pipes vibrate against the floorboards.

You can get "joist pipe clips" that are lower profile than ordinary clips. They're particularly useful for clipping 22mm pipes in 1" notches (which is ordinarily the most you can take out of an 8" joist without weakening it too much). Clipping 15mm pipes into 8" joists isn't usually too much drama. But do make sure you check the regs on notching joists if you're intending to deepen any existing notches or add new ones.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:55 am 
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A picture might help. Are the flexible hoses that connect the pump to the pipework straight or bent at all?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:29 am 
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Razor wrote:
A picture might help. Are the flexible hoses that connect the pump to the pipework straight or bent at all?


All pipes straight with slow bend elbows, photo attached.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:39 am 
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chrrris wrote:
yartin wrote:
pipes under floorboards which are rested on joists so you would feel the flow when I am standing on these boards otherwise you don't feel it. Does this make sense?

The pipes should be clipped to the joists, not resting on them and the floorboards shouldn't be resting on the pipes at all. Difficult to say exactly how much practical difference this would make to the vibration you're feeling through the floorboards without being there to see how it is at the moment -- definitely "some difference", but possibly not enough to warrant lifting all the boards, possibly deepening the notches (in accordance with the rules on notching joists, obv), and relaying the pipework. It may be easier to put up with the vibration, at least until you have to change the pipework for some other reason.

All locally pumped water has some amount of vibration, as the output from the impeller has peaks and troughs, although modern pumps do have all sorts of fancy computer-designed channels that the water flows through to minimise this (looks a bit like a wobbly maze of channels etched into a plastic disc inside the impeller housing). If everything is done right, pipework wise, you have a decent modern pump, and the floor is structurally sound, then it shouldn't really be so bad that you can feel vibrations through the floor. But you do often find, especially in older installs, that the pipework is resting, unsecured, on the joists and floorboards are resting on the tops of the pipes. So the pipes vibrate against the floorboards.

You can get "joist pipe clips" that are lower profile than ordinary clips. They're particularly useful for clipping 22mm pipes in 1" notches (which is ordinarily the most you can take out of an 8" joist without weakening it too much). Clipping 15mm pipes into 8" joists isn't usually too much drama. But do make sure you check the regs on notching joists if you're intending to deepen any existing notches or add new ones.


I have checked all pipes under floorboards, all have metal clips and are very tight, pipes don't move or shift at all when I try to by hand.
Its not exactly vibration. It is more you feel water flow when standing immediately above the joists and floorboards where pipes are running, otherwise you don't feel it anywhere else. And it is only when the pumped hot water is running not when mains cold water is on. Hot and cold copper pipes are next to each other under floorboards.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:31 pm 
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Sounds like you've done everything you possibly can then. The only thing I can think is trying a different pump, but that's a potentially expensive proposition and might not make any difference at all.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:54 pm 
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I'd cut in one of these: https://www.toolstation.com/shop/Plumbi ... lve/p17726

and try to balance the noise against the output a little. You may find a point that gives great water and is quiet!

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:14 am 
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chrrris wrote:
Sounds like you've done everything you possibly can then. The only thing I can think is trying a different pump, but that's a potentially expensive proposition and might not make any difference at all.


The one I have is ST 3.0 bar is a powerful pump and hence more noise and vibration. 1.5 bar would have been enough for me. But when shopping, I saw an offer and was very cheap and difference of £40 so went for it. It was a mistake because it is too much water if on full and not needed at all.


Last edited by yartin on Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:22 am 
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If you check the ST website it says you can restrict the pump by up to 30% as I said above. Obviously on the output side not on the feed :thumbleft:

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:33 am 
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Razor wrote:
If you check the ST website it says you can restrict the pump by up to 30% as I said above. Obviously on the output side not on the feed :thumbleft:


I have been in constant communication with ST for the last 2 months, several emails and suggestions but never mention of this. They do give good support plus 5 year warranty. I will check, sounds promising. do you have the link?
TBH I do struggle to control shower hot water as too much water, I am using thermostatic mixer
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