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Telmay
Senior Member
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 2486
Location: Worthing, West Sussex
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 Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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Bobbie,
Have I just read that right, you PVA'd the wall before making good and painting?
Never PVA before painting, at a push diluted PVA as a size.
Tel
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bobbie-dazzler
Senior Member
Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 1533
Location: Greater london
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:00 am Post subject: |
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I know what your saying Tel,  and I dont advocate using PVA prior to painting as a rule, but this was loads of filler , and was a very thin wash of PVA, I used a contract matt as the base coat, then followed with vinyl.
I did the whole flat, not with PVA lol, only the Pic area,and was there a while, so If it did have gone tats up, then I would have sorted it.
I could have used Oilbase UC instead, but had used the PVA in this form before, and have never had any problems, but Its not what I would use on a regular basis, as I do use Diluted PVA to seal lumps of filler prior to painting and specially prior to papering.
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Telmay
Senior Member
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 2486
Location: Worthing, West Sussex
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:54 am Post subject: |
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Can I suggest that you swap the PVA for Zinsser Shiledz this would be far better as you know PVA and paint just isnt a good idea.
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Susannah1
Junior Member
Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:21 am Post subject: |
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Excellent tip dazzler.
If PVA works for you, don't let anyone else tell you what to do. I know someone else that uses it prior to emulsioning and never has problems.
Good for you and great pictures to prove it. |
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Tryanything
Senior Member
Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 1535
Location: Essex
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:18 am Post subject: |
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What is the reasoning for not using PVA prior to emulsion ?
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bobbie-dazzler
Senior Member
Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 1533
Location: Greater london
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:56 am Post subject: |
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PVA is a no no specially on bare new plaster, as it doesnt allow the paint to soak through into the new plaster, the PVA is like a film that sits on top of the plaster, so any paint will not penetrate into the plaster and seal it.
Also what can happen is if you apply your paint over the PVA, the first coat might be okay, but any subsequents can lift and peel off/flake/come off in strips.
This is why you should never seal new plaster with PVA as it forms a barrier, you need to use a mistcoat of matt paint, preferably a non vinyl.
However, I had already used a very thin PVA solution, and as there was so much filler as you can see with the pic, I had PVAD the filler, but I had used a non vinly paint as a base coat, again very thin, then went on to Vinyl matt.
I have done this before, and I knew it would be okay, but I would never under no circumstances PVA brand new plaster.
I know lots of people use PVA as a seal coat,and they use it very thick and loads of people get away with it, and loads dont, like I said, I used a very thin PVA mix, one to stop the old paint flaking again after I sanded, and also to seal the all the filler.
It works for me, but I wouldnt advise it on new plaster.
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Telmay
Senior Member
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 2486
Location: Worthing, West Sussex
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:33 am Post subject: |
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Also if PVA gets wet it reactivates, I recently watched an older P&D on a house near me mixing PVA into his paint!!!!!!!
If you have adhesion problems then add Owatrol EB.
Also I have never come across filler dying after painting - I dont doubt you Bobby at all, just not happened to me. I always use Toupret and never had any issues.
Sussahna1 - PVA is not a good tip, as you will see in Bobbies other post which explains the reasons why not too, as it makes a barrier preventing paints to bind correctly with the surface.
At the end of the day if this solution works then great - just not the way I would do it. And if you want to avoid dust I can recommend the Abranet dustless sanding kit. In a case like this I would make good and line.
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Susannah1
Junior Member
Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:39 am Post subject: |
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My partner used PVA on the new render and then reactivated it with masonry paint.
No problems.
Genleman down the road used PVA over his new plaster first (cant see the point) but no problems.
What's the difference between PVA on filler and PVA on plaster? |
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Jaeger_S2k
Senior Member
Joined: 19 Nov 2006
Posts: 2786
Location: North West, England, United Kingdom
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:10 am Post subject: |
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Telmay isn't saying it will or won't cause issues BUT the make-up and purpose of PVA could cause issues, which is way he doesn't use it and as he says many people say 'I've used it and he's used and she's used it and it's never caused a problem, so I'll use it'
Doesn't mean it's right. Just means they haven't had a problem. Yet!
| Susannah1 wrote: |
My partner used PVA on the new render and then reactivated it with masonry paint.
No problems.
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What you've got here is. PVA attached to render creating a seal. Masonry Paint Attached to PVA. There will be 'no problem' until the PVA becomes exposed to moisture, the moisture will activate the PVA and the masonry paint will fall off.
| Susannah1 wrote: |
| Genleman down the road used PVA over his new plaster first (cant see the point) but no problems. |
As above, whatever he applys to the wall will be attached to the PVA not the substrate.
| Susannah1 wrote: |
| What's the difference between PVA on filler and PVA on plaster? |
Non.
It's a strange one the PVA story, not sure how it's been elevated to an all surface all use status? I even know tilers who PVA new plaster, check the tiling forum sticky for whay not.
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Susannah1
Junior Member
Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:16 am Post subject: |
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What you've got here is. PVA attached to render creating a seal. Masonry Paint Attached to PVA. There will be 'no problem' until the PVA becomes exposed to moisture, the moisture will activate the PVA and the masonry paint will fall off.
He did it 22 years ago,
The masonry paint used was Leyland,and there's not a square centimetre coming off on either side of the house. |
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Jaeger_S2k
Senior Member
Joined: 19 Nov 2006
Posts: 2786
Location: North West, England, United Kingdom
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| Susannah1 wrote: |
What you've got here is. PVA attached to render creating a seal. Masonry Paint Attached to PVA. There will be 'no problem' until the PVA becomes exposed to moisture, the moisture will activate the PVA and the masonry paint will fall off.
He did it 22 years ago,
The masonry paint used was Leyland,and there's not a square centimetre coming off on either side of the house. |
I hear you .... but this means the Masonry Paint hasn't failed and there are no breaks to allow moisture in to activate the PVA. He deserves a treat now as he did a good paint job, Steak and Chips, Medium rare and ALL the trimmings 
Susannah I haven't said 'your masonry paint will fall of because you used PVA' I am saying that IF the masonry paint was to fail (like it was chipped cracked scraped) and the moisture allowed to penetrate the make-up of PVA would be to activate and potentially the masonry paint fall off.
That's why it is NOT Telmays and many others 'best practice'.
Imagine I was to have painted your render for you and it did fall off, you would expect me to come and rectify it for free (and rightly so). As it's my time that's at risk I wouldn't use materials that would leave me open to such a claim, so I wouldn't use PVA in this instance, why? Because of it's properties and it is not suitable for or the best product for the job in hand.
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"Does my bum look BIG in this?" Wit's a Ba' Hair in Metric?
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Telmay
Senior Member
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 2486
Location: Worthing, West Sussex
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:07 am Post subject: |
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This is exactly my point Jags, its all about best practice and making informed decisions.
As for his paint job lasting 22 years - good for him, where I live and work on the South Coast any paint applied on a PVA base would have failed pretty quickly due to the salt air and high moisture content.
Decorating costs a lot of money if you get a decorator in or lots of your spare time, and the whole point of this forum is to help you make informed decisions. The advice is free and its up to you if you decide to take it or not.
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"Where would we be without rules?
France! And where would we be with too many rules? Germany!" |
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Susannah1
Junior Member
Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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The advice is free and its up to you if you decide to take it or not.
I'll take bobbie dazzlers advice this was loads of filler , and was a very thin wash of PVA and I do use Diluted PVA to seal lumps of filler prior to painting and specially prior to papering. Along with the good photo's. |
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Telmay
Senior Member
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 2486
Location: Worthing, West Sussex
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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Thats your choice Susanna - good luck with your projects
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"Where would we be without rules?
France! And where would we be with too many rules? Germany!" |
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Susannah1
Junior Member
Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Telmay.
It will be interesting to see how LovelyBoy gets on with the advice given. |
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