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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:37 am 
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I've removed wallpaper from an accent wall, so that I can paint over it. However, the first coat of paint is cracking slightly in some areas.

To remove the wall paper, I did:
1. Applied Polycell Wallpaper Stripper to the wallpaper
2. Used a scraper to remove the paper
3. Scrubbed down wall thoroughly with sugar soap to remove glue residue
4. Rinsed wall with fresh water

I'm confident that there is no glue remaining on the wall.

The wallpaper was really stuck on there (a much harder job than removing wallpaper in another room in the house), so there are a *lot* of gouges in the wall from the scraper. Some gouges were shallow, some deep.

To fix the gouges, I've done:
5. Polyfilla on all gouges, and allowed to dry for several hours (see picture)
6. Sanded down pollyfilla
7. Wiped down wall with a damp cloth

To paint, I've done:
8. Apply mist coat of matt emulsion (30% water, 70% paint)
9. Allowed to dry for several hours, then first coat of full matt emulsion.

I didn't check the wall thoroughly after applying mist coat, so unsure whether cracks formed before or after the first full coat of matt emulsion.

My ideas so far:
a. I spoke to a general builder who suggested it might be that there was some dust from the sanding still on the wall, which prevented the paint from sticking. He suggested scraping off peeling paint, re-filling and painting over.

b. In wiping down the wall with a damp cloth, some of the polyfilla was wiped out of the shallower gouges. I assumed if the gouge was so shallow, I could just paint over it anyway. Is it possible to go down to the plasterboard even with what seemed to be a shallow gouge?

Anyone got some advice on what to do next, or other sources of problems?


Attachments:
File comment: Peeling / cracking paint
IMG_4106.JPG
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File comment: After scraping off the peeling paint
IMG_4105.JPG
IMG_4105.JPG [ 154.17 KiB | Viewed 757 times ]
File comment: Lots of filled gouges
IMG_4104.JPG
IMG_4104.JPG [ 352.82 KiB | Viewed 757 times ]
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:57 am 
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Scrape off the loose, feather it in by sanding, prime it, fill it and start again.

I use Zinsser primers and Toupret fillers, you shouldn't get a problem.

Is there many spots affected?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:22 am 
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:welcomeuhm:
You are really doing a good job ... you must suffer from OCD too. Toupret (powder) filler is good as Desmondo said.

From photo #1 I would have guessed paint on wet paint but given photo #2, it is the blue paint that is lifting and it could be lifting even with the filler on top of it, so in photo #1 the thick cracking is most likely the blue paint and with filler on top of it.

Wherever you fill, mist coat the filler before painting again (toupret says it does not need priming but belts and braces may be better).


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:52 am 
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Thanks for the help :)

Desmondo15 wrote:
Scrape off the loose, feather it in by sanding, prime it, fill it and start again.


Will filler stick to the underlying plasterboard, or do I need to prime first? Is Zinsser Bulls Eye 1-2-3 the right product for this?

Desmondo15 wrote:
Is there many spots affected?


I would say 5 to 10% of spots have cracked. Some are very small (e.g. a crack in the paint 2mm long), I've only noticed them because I'm specifically looking for them. (But when I use a scraper the paint comes off quite easily in that area, so I don't think I'm being too pedantic with removing them?)

OchAye wrote:
From photo #1 I would have guessed paint on wet paint but given photo #2, it is the blue paint that is lifting and it could be lifting even with the filler on top of it, so in photo #1 the thick cracking is most likely the blue paint and with filler on top of it.


I've been scraping away the blue paint as the top coat lifts, hoping the filler will stick to a slightly deeper gouge. I haven't noticed the blue paint lifting but will take a more careful look. I left 4 hours between misting coat and full emulsion, and the wall was definitely touch dry, but maybe I should have left more time?

Some of the filled gouges were very shallow, if the gouge is shallow should I paint over or fill it? Is it possibly the shallow filler which is lifting?

My main concern is that even if I scrape down all the peeling paint that I can find, and get two coats of the top coat to stick, will the finish last? Or will I have a peeling / cracking wall in 6 months time?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:51 pm 
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Use toupret filler, also fillers (whether it says so on the packet or not) have a short shelf life (troupret stuff maybe 18 months). Here is one example of toupret at toolstation https://www.toolstation.com/shop/p63284 ... tr=toupret

Filler can go straight onto plasterboard/plaster. No need for 123. Filler should stick as thin as you like but you are not supposed to wash it down ... in practice you should not need even a moist cloth to remove the dust. A duster should be good enough.

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My main concern is that even if I scrape down all the peeling paint that I can find, and get two coats of the top coat to stick, will the finish last? Or will I have a peeling / cracking wall in 6 months time?

I will chicken out from making a claim :dunno: You may remove the bad bits you see now, but on the next coat of paint new bad bits may be activated :-(

You said you are certain you washed the paste off ... the way to tell (too late now) if you got paste or not on the wall, when the wall is wet with water if your finger tips can slide on the wall too easily then there is still paste on the surface. It usually needs a lot of clean warm water and scraping and scotchbrite to remove the paste. Some of the cracking is consistent with paste residue (photo #1) as well as wet on wet paint (both work the same way ... paint activates the paste which becomes wet but paint won't stick well on paste).

Scrape gently some of your cracked surface and see what layers come off ... may help you to figure out where is the problem.

-----------------

Where things are confused is with your mist coat. Mist coat over a painted surface is pointless. Mist coating the filler is often necessary and fair enough for that. I cannot tell if 4 hours is enough to dry (not touch dry). Further, if you used a cheap emulsion and added 30% water you may have got a very weak layer of paint on top of the previous paint and not enough of a primer over the filled areas. It does not look as if this is your problem (unless all the cracks are on filled areas).

PS. I am only a DIYer :-)


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:23 pm 
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I would use 123 or BIN or even Guardz if there's any chance of glue about purely because I like the surface to be stable and bonded together. It's a bit overkill maybe, depends on your gut instinct, time, budget etc..

Whatever's loose needs to come off, this is how you extend your long term stability.

Try not to look at the hole wall as a problem but rather each individual area and adapting to what's best for there.

If your gut says it's all dodgy get someone to skim it (after prep).


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:30 pm 
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What paints have you used by the way?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:28 pm 
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Looking at the pics looks to be a classic case of paste re-activation. a few options.

Lining paper.

sand the whole wall back then wash down again then check as och-aye says "when the wall is wet with water if your finger tips can slide on the wall too easily then there is still paste on the surface."

Zinsser B-I-N one coat; followed by 2 coats of trade emulsion thinned as per the instructions on the tin

Why trade ? Trade paints generally have a lot more pigment than retail paints so better coverage/opacity.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:20 am 
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Desmondo15 wrote:
What paints have you used by the way?


Farrow and ball estate emulsion (before anyone says anything about them being over priced, I know, but it's the only paint shop anywhere near me..!)

OchAye wrote:
You said you are certain you washed the paste off ... the way to tell (too late now) if you got paste or not on the wall, when the wall is wet with water if your finger tips can slide on the wall too easily then there is still paste on the surface. It usually needs a lot of clean warm water and scraping and scotchbrite to remove the paste.


Yes I did this test, the walls weren't slippery by the time I was done washing (a few hours spent scouring with sugar soap and warm water).

I've noticed that the cracking / peeling paint is only happening over the polyfilla - whereas the paint is sticking well to the blue coat of paint. Unfortunately there's a lot of polyfilla...

Also, in general the paint on polyfilla seems pretty weak - even if there isn't any cracking, if I stick a piece of masking tape over the polyfilla'ed area the paint comes right off quite easily (whereas for other areas of the wall which haven't been filled, no paint comes off with the masking tape).

Is it possible that I've got a bad box of polyfilla? As I mentioned, the peeling / cracking only happens where I've painted over polyfilla, and when I scrape off the paint the paint peels off the Polyfilla leaving the Pollyfilla behind in the wall. I've done a misting coat on the polyfilla every time, 30% water 70% emulsion.

I ordered the Polyfilla off Amazon (powdered version), and while the polyfilla had plenty of good reviews, I've since heard lots of bad stories of ordering DIY supplies off amazon (third party suppliers buying nearly-expired / generally bad products and selling on amazon for cheap). There's no expiry date on the box, does the powdered stuff have a shelf life? It's mixed well and seems to stick to the wall well enough.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:49 am 
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chris414 wrote:
I've noticed that the cracking / peeling paint is only happening over the polyfilla - whereas the paint is sticking well to the blue coat of paint. Unfortunately there's a lot of polyfilla...

Also, in general the paint on polyfilla seems pretty weak - even if there isn't any cracking, if I stick a piece of masking tape over the polyfilla'ed area the paint comes right off quite easily (whereas for other areas of the wall which haven't been filled, no paint comes off with the masking tape).

Is it possible that I've got a bad box of polyfilla? As I mentioned, the peeling / cracking only happens where I've painted over polyfilla, and when I scrape off the paint the paint peels off the Polyfilla leaving the Pollyfilla behind in the wall. I've done a misting coat on the polyfilla every time, 30% water 70% emulsion.

I ordered the Polyfilla off Amazon (powdered version), and while the polyfilla had plenty of good reviews, I've since heard lots of bad stories of ordering DIY supplies off amazon (third party suppliers buying nearly-expired / generally bad products and selling on amazon for cheap). There's no expiry date on the box, does the powdered stuff have a shelf life? It's mixed well and seems to stick to the wall well enough.


Answering in random order.

Most/all Fillers are gypsum + other things based. Plaster is gypsum based and does have an expiry date on teh bags. Fillers do not have an expiry date but I am certain that Toupret for some of its products says 18 months from when leaving the factory ... so if a shop rotates its stuff you should not in theory have a problem.

I have used some own brand fillers (Crown Trade's own brand back then...) you did not need to sand it ... you rubbed it with your finger tips and it came off. If your filler washed off whilst whipping and not washing down the wall to remove the dust it is suspect.

An older filler will remain soft and crumbly and will probably be a lot more porous than it should be. Perhaps try pressing with your finger nail where there is filler and where there is no filler and see if you leave the same indentation on the wall. A possibility in your case is the liquid got absorbed too quickly in filled areas leaving the solids of the paint on the surface ready to lift off when they got wet [but the paint should have bubbled instead of cracking]. The good thing is you can easily put it right with elbow grease, sand or scrape or just get a sponge with water and wash it off and then fill again :-(

==============
If you decide to buy toupret from toolstation it is easy enough to make it up to £10 (e.g. buy a couple of rubber tubs for mixing the filler and something else) and get free delivery which needed £10 spending.

You got the paint now so that is OK. But the general rule of thumb here is do not buy from the DIY shops, buy from independents or buy from the companies own trade shops you might have one of these near you if you want to try next time:
in alphabetic order
Crown Trade often cr@p accuracy
Dulux Trade
Johnstone's Trade
Prices to you and me are probably a touch cheaper than F&B but not by much.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:27 pm 
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OchAye wrote:
chris414 wrote:
I've noticed that the cracking / peeling paint is only happening over the polyfilla - whereas the paint is sticking well to the blue coat of paint. Unfortunately there's a lot of polyfilla...

Also, in general the paint on polyfilla seems pretty weak - even if there isn't any cracking, if I stick a piece of masking tape over the polyfilla'ed area the paint comes right off quite easily (whereas for other areas of the wall which haven't been filled, no paint comes off with the masking tape).

Is it possible that I've got a bad box of polyfilla? As I mentioned, the peeling / cracking only happens where I've painted over polyfilla, and when I scrape off the paint the paint peels off the Polyfilla leaving the Pollyfilla behind in the wall. I've done a misting coat on the polyfilla every time, 30% water 70% emulsion.

I ordered the Polyfilla off Amazon (powdered version), and while the polyfilla had plenty of good reviews, I've since heard lots of bad stories of ordering DIY supplies off amazon (third party suppliers buying nearly-expired / generally bad products and selling on amazon for cheap). There's no expiry date on the box, does the powdered stuff have a shelf life? It's mixed well and seems to stick to the wall well enough.


Answering in random order.

Most/all Fillers are gypsum + other things based. Plaster is gypsum based and does have an expiry date on teh bags. Fillers do not have an expiry date but I am certain that Toupret for some of its products says 18 months from when leaving the factory ... so if a shop rotates its stuff you should not in theory have a problem.

I have used some own brand fillers (Crown Trade's own brand back then...) you did not need to sand it ... you rubbed it with your finger tips and it came off. If your filler washed off whilst whipping and not washing down the wall to remove the dust it is suspect.

An older filler will remain soft and crumbly and will probably be a lot more porous than it should be. Perhaps try pressing with your finger nail where there is filler and where there is no filler and see if you leave the same indentation on the wall. A possibility in your case is the liquid got absorbed too quickly in filled areas leaving the solids of the paint on the surface ready to lift off when they got wet [but the paint should have bubbled instead of cracking]. The good thing is you can easily put it right with elbow grease, sand or scrape or just get a sponge with water and wash it off and then fill again :-(

==============
If you decide to buy toupret from toolstation it is easy enough to make it up to £10 (e.g. buy a couple of rubber tubs for mixing the filler and something else) and get free delivery which needed £10 spending.

You got the paint now so that is OK. But the general rule of thumb here is do not buy from the DIY shops, buy from independents or buy from the companies own trade shops you might have one of these near you if you want to try next time:
in alphabetic order
Crown Trade often cr@p accuracy
Dulux Trade
Johnstone's Trade
Prices to you and me are probably a touch cheaper than F&B but not by much.


Thanks again for all the help, really appreciated!

I've done another round of polyfilla and mist coat, so will see how that dries up over the day.

What's the difference between Toupret and Easi-fill? I haven't used either, but seen the names come up quite often.

Should I keep looking for paint which pulls off when masking tape is removed (paint which hasn't cracked or peeled)? or am I being too aggressive with removing paint?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:45 pm 
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chris414 wrote:
What's the difference between Toupret and Easi-fill? I haven't used either, but seen the names come up quite often.

Should I keep looking for paint which pulls off when masking tape is removed (paint which hasn't cracked or peeled)? or am I being too aggressive with removing paint?

Easi-fill is designed primarily for taping and jointing plaster board. It has 3(?) versions depending on the open time to use it. It must be used wet on wet else - as I found out at my expense and figured it out from wine~o - you must wet the previous coat before you reapply. I personally don't like using it as a filler as it is too powdery and too porous and as I don't joint plasterboard I just don't like it :-) Easy to sand though.

Toupret filler is designed to be applied thin or thick e.g. to fill holes and in theory it does not need a mist coat. Not as easy to sand. Generally it is a harder wearing product. The company makes a series of products I have only tried 3 of them and I was impressed.

What is the point of trying the masking tape trick? If you got a high tack version of masking tape it will pull off the paint anyway. The trick is only useful if you intend to sand down the whole wall. Also having done a mist coat to the whole wall you have introduced a weaker layer of paint between the old blue and the top coat.

When you mist coat the filler use a brush over the spots but make sure you feather the edges of the paint. Go round it a second time straight away ... the idea is to give a chance to the filler to absorb as much as possible diluted paint in one go and with a brush you can get more paint on the spots than painting the whole wall with a roller. When you do a patch with deeper filler underneath you can see the filled area absorbing the paint faster than the surrounding painted area. I hope it works for you.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:19 am 
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Paint is still peeling, I think I'm going to sand down the wall and start again...

My plan of attack:
1. Sand down the wall (get rid of the blue coat of paint entirely, so no risk of glue residue)
2. Prime with Zinsser Gardz
3. Patch any repairs with Toupret filler
4. Apply Gardz on to the patched areas
5. Attempt painting top coat emulsion again

Does this sound like a sensible plan? Am I missing any steps?

EDIT: looks like Gardz isn't stocked near me. Would Zinsser 1-2-3 or Zinsser B-I-N also be suitable?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:14 pm 
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OK. Remember everything will take much longer to dry on top of Gardz, forget the drying and recoating times written on the tin of paint.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:44 pm 
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I had terrible issues with emulsion crazing and cracking and this was sorted by using Gardz. I am using it throughout the rest of the house now as its just not worth the risk of a similar issue happening again.

Even with Gardz I have had a couple of problem areas which I have had lightly sand and use another coat of gardz before paint (which did the trick).

For this reason if you know you have problem walls I would use two coats of gardz- its cheap and goes miles so worth the small extra cost and time to slap another coat on.

Good luck :)


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