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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:00 pm 
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All previous predictions for making the country 'worse off' have fallen by the wayside - much as the predictions/claims for CAGW, the usual alarmists take the pessimistic attitude in the face of zero evidence to the contrary.

What is it about those miserable c***s that's makes them so against 'us'? You'd think they WANTED the UK to fail so they can sit back, arms folded and smugly claim "told you so". What a pathetic attitude. How on earth do they even get out of bed in the mornings? Surely they must do so expecting the world to end by lunchtime?

Instead of living your lives on a 'what if' basis how about living it with a 'can do' attitude instead?

Miserable, moaning f****rs :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:53 pm 
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kellys_eye wrote:

Instead of living your lives on a 'what if' basis how about living it with a 'can do' attitude instead?

Miserable, moaning f****rs :mrgreen:



Seconded.... :huray:

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:25 pm 
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wine~o wrote:
kellys_eye wrote:

Instead of living your lives on a 'what if' basis how about living it with a 'can do' attitude instead?

Miserable, moaning f****rs :mrgreen:



Seconded.... :huray:


Thirded!! :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:26 pm 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQfdGwikecs&list=LLMzD0pvOh6E47IQKcgc7RCg&index=1

For once Ruth the mooth speaks the truth :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:26 pm 
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That's a LARGE bitty truth escaped from the Ruth mooth.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:02 pm 
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kellys_eye wrote:
All previous predictions for making the country 'worse off' have fallen by the wayside - much as the predictions/claims for CAGW, the usual alarmists take the pessimistic attitude in the face of zero evidence to the contrary.

What is it about those miserable c***s that's makes them so against 'us'? You'd think they WANTED the UK to fail so they can sit back, arms folded and smugly claim "told you so". What a pathetic attitude. How on earth do they even get out of bed in the mornings? Surely they must do so expecting the world to end by lunchtime?

Instead of living your lives on a 'what if' basis how about living it with a 'can do' attitude instead?

Miserable, moaning f****rs :mrgreen:

You mean like how the pound plummeted? Most of the predictions were based upon us leaving. We haven't left yet.

Or how about you want to discuss the costs of leaving? Or likely countries we will get decent trade deals from?

Then there is the cost of setting up the various EU agency equivalents ie. those EU agencies that we will have to replicate independently, at greater cost. A good discussion of this is here:
http://www.richardcorbett.org.uk/brexit ... -agencies/



Here is an informal list of what costs we will likely incur in the coming years:
The £122bn budget shortfall
Additional funding for the NHS
Maintaining farming subsidies
Maintaining fishing subsidies
Indemnifying manufacturers against negative impacts of Brexit
£2bn a year for science and innovation
Replace EU investment for our poorest regions
Pay our EEA subscriptions
Pay for the department of Brexiting
Pay for the department of International Trade
Pay for bodies to set and enforce rules currently handled by the EU

Further examples:
Invest in waste projects to reduce landfill (eg. waste to energy)

Increased social care costs, as expats return to the UK from Spain etc, and we have to replace the EU workers who left that would do much of that care.

The direct and consequential costs, arising from any changes to the free travel area between the UK and ROI

£800m per annum extra to meet our 0.7% international development commitment, since a portion of our present EU contribution counts towards that goal.

€40-€60bn exit bill to cover pension liabilities, unpaid commitments and loan guarantees.

Many shared resources, such as the European Medicines Agency (a large UK office that brings in huge trade into its area), which is responsible for scientific evaluation, supervision and safety monitoring of medicines for use in the EU; and the European Environment Agency, which provides independent information for policy makers and the public, to name but two... All such agencies, with the cost currently shared across the EU and EEA, will need to be set up from scratch in the UK, if we are to uphold our global regulatory and policy obligations.

European social funding planned would be honoured

Extra help in sports programs

A whole infrastructure of inventory units at uk ports and airport's to handle and check all goods coming to and from the EU because we are not in the customs union. And increased cost to business, with the delays and expense of goods having to go through those checks.

Employing lots more civil servants to manage the above?

Reduced taxation incomes from big business to encourage them to come here, but I suspect that will be offset by cutting benefits and increasing personal taxation or National Insurance.

The economic loss from signing a rushed 'distress' trade deal with the USA.

The reduction in economic productivity, due to being unable to attract talented people from overseas, either through outright controls, unworkable bureaucracy, or simply that they don't see the UK as a desirable place to live.

The recruitment of hundreds of border staff
And...
Helping to fund (presumably) some new court for handling trade disputes with the EU,
----------------------------------------------------------------------

All the evidence points to us being worse off as a country, and people are calling remainers traitors?
This isn't moaning, its just facts.



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:25 pm 
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Many of the items listed above were paid from our own contributions in the first place - you seem to forget (or conveniently disregard) that we were (are) paying £10bn (and rising still) OVER AND ABOVE what we receive back in so-called subsidies.

This negates 90% of the claims of financial shortfall.

I'm not even going to bother going through it point-for-point as it's clearly a cut'n'paste from some pro-EU Remoaning link somewhere :roll:

but such items as 'landfill'??? ::b exit bill (i.e. zero) ::b

... and you're not stating 'facts' - for the most part you are stating ALARMIST SPECULATION based on nothing but opinion and zero facts at all.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:47 pm 
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kellys_eye wrote:
Many of the items listed above were paid from our own contributions in the first place - you seem to forget (or conveniently disregard) that we were (are) paying £10bn (and rising still) OVER AND ABOVE what we receive back in so-called subsidies.

This negates 90% of the claims of financial shortfall.

You forget that if we go for a hard brexit, we'll lose trade. We'll also have to replicate the services that the EU provided, but it will be far less efficient (see link I gave for why).
Quote:
I'm not even going to bother going through it point-for-point as it's clearly a cut'n'paste from some pro-EU Remoaning link somewhere :roll:

Its from a variety of sources I've put together (mainly on a forum with no particular political leaning). You fail to account for the inefficiencies of doing it all in house.
Quote:
but such items as 'landfill'??? ::b exit bill (i.e. zero) ::b

We'll still have those targets for environmental performance if we want to do any trade with the EU. The difference is that now we'll have to achieve them without any help. As an eg: we are currently getting a huge waste to energy plant in Hull part funded by the EU. To achieve such targets, you often have to get Government help to push new technology forward, and drive environmental improvement. Without EU funding, this is far less likely to happen.

I could go into far more detail including DEFRA failures, but you get the gist.
Quote:
... and you're not stating 'facts' - for the most part you are stating ALARMIST SPECULATION based on nothing but opinion and zero facts at all.
Its not in anyway alarmist, when even the media has woken up to what is in the list (after we compiled it I should add). Eg. the issue of the EMA office.



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:18 pm 
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kellys_eye wrote:
What is it about those miserable c***s that's makes them so against 'us'? You'd think they WANTED the UK to fail so they can sit back, arms folded and smugly claim "told you so". What a pathetic attitude. How on earth do they even get out of bed in the mornings? Surely they must do so expecting the world to end by lunchtime?

Instead of living your lives on a 'what if' basis how about living it with a 'can do' attitude instead?

Miserable, moaning f****rs :mrgreen:

When we joined Europe, people started moaning about it, and didn't stop until we left. Its the turn of pro-Europeans.
You'll have to live with it, as we live in a democracy. One where we care about our country, and want what's best for it. Just because its different to what you think is best does not mean we should stop saying what we believe is best for our country.

Remember, democracy doesn't stop at a vote.



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:00 pm 
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wobs wrote:
When we joined Europe, people started moaning about it, and didn't stop until we left. Its the turn of pro-Europeans.


When we joined "the common market" (Not Europe we've always been a part of that continent) I was too young to vote. However even then I could see that is was a good move to have a free trade agreement with our continental cousins... I didn't complain in the slightest. You really need to look at the historical reasons why the free-trade agreement was even necessary.

I voted to leave the "EU" a completely different beast to what we signed up to...

As for "Its the turn of pro-Europeans" to have a moan... carry on moaning... We are leaving. Fact.

(probably the only actual "Fact" in this whole thread, everything else is mere speculation and/or scaremongering)

:mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:39 pm 
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"wobs"
I'm somewhat impressed by your bringing together of the projections of the effects on UK's economy and other finance-related aspects of 'our' lives IFF UK exits the EU.
On the matter of 'democracy', it may be salutary to remember some words of John Major - he of warm beer and cricket -
Sir John Major has launched a fresh attack on “ultra-Brexiteers” within the Conservative party, accusing them of seeking to force a complete break with Europe.

Quote:
The former prime minister said that having won the referendum last year with “fake facts and bogus promise”, the “ultras” were now shouting down anyone who expressed an opposing view in a way that was “totally un-British”.
“It is time for the minority of ‘ultra-Brexiteers’ – those who believe in a complete break from Europe – to stop shouting down anyone with an opposing view. It is not only unattractive but profoundly undemocratic and totally un-British,”
he wrote in the Mail.
And continued:
Quote:
“If the rancour merely came from rabble elements, or extreme minorities, it could be ignored. But when it comes from politicians, including those from within the governing party, it is time to confront it.”

-----------
"wobs" - whilst I agree with the principle of your:
Quote:
democracy doesn't stop at a vote.

I fear that not only on the BrExit issue but on many others, that now reads:
democracy shouldn't stop at a vote.
The role of we, the public, in the functioning at policy level in our few remaining jointly owned institutions is being very quickly and effectively rolled back.
In MS religions, communications to and from the 'supreme being' are filtered and regulated by a Priesthood.
So with, e g, NHS - communications with the Board and other Policy bodies are restricted to the VCSE sector who claim to represent the public and speak on our behalf.
Those who wish to express their informed opinions, possibly against the prevailing orthodoxy, will be vilified and lashed in vitriolic attacks.
"Will be"?
ARE already being!
And as things increasingly fall apart, it will not be those who forced thru' BrExit against all rationality who will be held to blame.
It will be the Saboteurs, the Traitors, the 5th Columnists, the "Remoaners" upon whom vengeance will be visited.
As public poverty and living conditions spiral, civil unrest and disturbances will rise.
Those who actually own UK will demand that their investments are protected by the state - or they will be galvanized to DIY.

Sic transit Gloria Mundi


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:22 pm 
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Quote:
You forget that if we go for a hard brexit, we'll lose trade.

Scaremongering, alarmist BS backed by no evidence whatsoever.

Quote:
You fail to account for the inefficiencies of doing it all in house.

Funny how we managed for 100's of years prior........

Quote:
We'll still have those targets for environmental performance if we want to do any trade with the EU.

So the EU won't buy our products unless we prevent some obscure worm from environmental harm (or whatever)? Proves my point on their pettiness in the first instance. If the EU don't want 'our' goods, we won't want theirs. It's called tit-for-tat and they have more to lose than we do.

Quote:
... part funded by the EU.

'part' or 'none'? What percentage was paid for by the British taxpayer? If a waste-to-energy power station is a financially viable solution to a specific need then business would finance it anyway. You're either indicating that this is a 'green' initiative that wouldn't exist if taxes weren't involved or having to concede that it doesn't really need EU money anyway.

Quote:
....even the media has woken up to what is in the list

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: you mean the (pro EU) media have been handed a list of alarmists BS that they can shove down gullible throats?

As with CAGW, the EU 'argument' seems to be another subject that you, Wobs, seem to be incapable of resolving without being 'told' what's right and wrong - incapable of creating your own opinion on. Too easily influenced by what you fail to recognise as biased sources or sources that have known and deliberate links to the EU (by payment) - even incapable of understanding WHY there are 'deliberate' fake news and alarmist causes.

Worse, you seem to have no belief in your country or your fellow man (it is your country isn't it? You're not a subversive 'foreigner' are you?). I can only surmise that you work in a state-paid industry (or don't work at all, certainly you aren't self-employed) and have definite left-wing leanings. All the signs are there.....

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:24 pm 
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AAA.Handy.Man wrote:
"wobs"
I'm somewhat impressed by your bringing together of the projections of the effects on UK's economy and other finance-related aspects of 'our' lives IFF UK exits the EU.
On the matter of 'democracy', it may be salutary to remember some words of John Major - he of warm beer and cricket -
Sir John Major has launched a fresh attack on “ultra-Brexiteers” within the Conservative party, accusing them of seeking to force a complete break with Europe.

Quote:
The former prime minister said that having won the referendum last year with “fake facts and bogus promise”, the “ultras” were now shouting down anyone who expressed an opposing view in a way that was “totally un-British”.
“It is time for the minority of ‘ultra-Brexiteers’ – those who believe in a complete break from Europe – to stop shouting down anyone with an opposing view. It is not only unattractive but profoundly undemocratic and totally un-British,”
he wrote in the Mail.
And continued:
Quote:
“If the rancour merely came from rabble elements, or extreme minorities, it could be ignored. But when it comes from politicians, including those from within the governing party, it is time to confront it.”

-----------
"wobs" - whilst I agree with the principle of your:
Quote:
democracy doesn't stop at a vote.

I fear that not only on the BrExit issue but on many others, that now reads:
democracy shouldn't stop at a vote.
The role of we, the public, in the functioning at policy level in our few remaining jointly owned institutions is being very quickly and effectively rolled back.
In MS religions, communications to and from the 'supreme being' are filtered and regulated by a Priesthood.
So with, e g, NHS - communications with the Board and other Policy bodies are restricted to the VCSE sector who claim to represent the public and speak on our behalf.
Those who wish to express their informed opinions, possibly against the prevailing orthodoxy, will be vilified and lashed in vitriolic attacks.
"Will be"?
ARE already being!
And as things increasingly fall apart, it will not be those who forced thru' BrExit against all rationality who will be held to blame.
It will be the Saboteurs, the Traitors, the 5th Columnists, the "Remoaners" upon whom vengeance will be visited.
As public poverty and living conditions spiral, civil unrest and disturbances will rise.
Those who actually own UK will demand that their investments are protected by the state - or they will be galvanized to DIY.

Sic transit Gloria Mundi



:sleepy1: :sleepy1:

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:35 pm 
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Wobs wrote:
You'll have to live with it, as we live in a democracy.


Wobs wrote:
Remember, democracy doesn't stop at a vote.


Make your mind up! The democracy voted for OUT. Are you denying that?

.... well, yes you DO deny it as, apparently, the only 'correct' democratic vote is the one YOU want. Just as with that idiot Sturgeon, you can't deal with anything that doesn't go your own way. Grow up.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:59 pm 
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kellys_eye wrote:
Wobs wrote:
You'll have to live with it, as we live in a democracy.

Wobs wrote:
Remember, democracy doesn't stop at a vote.

Make your mind up! The democracy voted for OUT. Are you denying that?
.... well, yes you DO deny it as, apparently, the only 'correct' democratic vote is the one YOU want. Just as with that idiot Sturgeon, you can't deal with anything that doesn't go your own way. Grow up.

Quote:
democracy doesn't stop at a vote.

I think that you'll find that phrase is generally accepted to mean that;
~ the totality of democracy is not just in voting for an MP once every 4 or 5 years
~ democracy encompasses the right to protest peacefully against aspects of an elected body's proposals and laws.
~ ppl may protest in a number of ways and should not be arrested, charged, harassed or otherwize victimized simply because of their opposition.
As the realization of the probable error of proceeding with BrExit looms ever larger, those utterly committed to this overt act of xenophobia see their longed for dream starting to slip away.

Their vitriolic and abusive language may soon turn to make manifest the violence contained in their utterances.


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