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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:31 pm 
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In time the sheen levels of oil based gloss won't be an issue.

The paint manufacturers will either get the formula spot on or there will be no oils left to compare with.

The extra coats thing won't be an issue either as with the shine, the build and opacity will either improve or we will just all be quoting for an extra coat as a matter of course.

Re the extra coat, it's not something that takes a lot of time, as all the work is already in the prep and first two coats.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:11 am 
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Re the extra coat, it's not something that takes a lot of time, as all the work is already in the prep and first two coats.


In a standard room, e.g. a bedroom with one door, skirting, one window sill, and one radiator, I would agree. However, a hall, stairs, and landing will need at least an extra day, maybe two.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:11 am 
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A handful of the hybrids apply a bit slow, as in oil slow, but the trade-off is that they cover like oil. Dulux Trade QD Gloss feels and applies like an oil, but on an HSL I did 2 years back (with 2 windows and a large Velux roof window) the finish still has a high gloss, and is as white as the day it went on. That was a 22 roll HSL with a lot of white trim, that I just wasn't getting caught with.

I did a smaller, darker stairway in the much lauded Dulux blue lid oil gloss, as it was getting some positive things said about it (after I had gone WB), and after around 3 months the white was gone. Biggest mistake I've made, and I swore off oil completely after that.

::b ::b ::b ::b ::b ::b ::b ::b ::b ::b ::b

Something I've started doing is encouraging customers to do their own research about the yellowing issue, and not simply to take my word for it. That way, they can access pages and pages of information and stories that back up what I say.

Extra coats, for the moment, are part and parcel of going WB, but there are a few paints already out there with the opacity (if not the body) of oils. Another generation of acrylics/hybrids will take the place of the current crop of products, and more of that lovely American gear will find its way here.

So many, myself included, felt that the Holy Grail of WB was the high sheen gloss, but the more I use WB paints, I'm inclined to feel that a full-bodied, grain-filling undercoat that flows out, would be preferable, on the basis of new timber. One of the real tricks to attaining the best gloss level is getting the surface as flat/smooth as possible (as in Gras a Lacquer) to reflect light back, instead of refract light at an angle. It's a perceptual thing, but does bear out real-world results. If that can be achieved, then the need for ultra-high sheen paints could be reduced somewhat.

This all still sounds so much like the "Paint is sh1te now they've removed the lead from it" that the old boys used to say. :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:45 am 
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I do like Bedec MSP, although their satin does seem to cover a lot better than their gloss. I use it when I have to use quick-drying e.g. external windows and doors that need to be closed within a few hours.

For undercoat I prefer Dulux Trade water-based primer/undercoat.

These last couple of weeks I have used their regular undercoat as I have been painting coloured woodwork back to white. I haven't seen any of the drying delays that people talk about and my only gripe is it is quite thick in the tin.

Edit - MSP is a lot dearer than Dulux Trade satin: 2.5 ltrs of Bedec is around £46 vs £23 for DT. :roll:


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:43 am 
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Tom d'Angler wrote:
I do like Bedec MSP, although their satin does seem to cover a lot better than their gloss.
Confused here :help: I used Bedec MSP satin on skirting board (tiles). It stuck very well but it had very little opacity. On asking here, I was told the gloss was the better of the two paints ... I have never used the gloss and I have no opportunity to try it.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:47 am 
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Tom d'Angler wrote:
Quote:
Re the extra coat, it's not something that takes a lot of time, as all the work is already in the prep and first two coats.


In a standard room, e.g. a bedroom with one door, skirting, one window sill, and one radiator, I would agree. However, a hall, stairs, and landing will need at least an extra day, maybe two.
Well in that case, factor it into the price of the job. Staircases are the most likely to yellow, so explain to the customer that the yellowing issue won't be a problem.

Plus, you can work much more quickly with acrylics, so your first coats won't take as long.



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:48 am 
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One thing to consider in the oil v water debate is returning to the jobs you've done.

We all benefit from recommendation and repeat custom.

Water over oil may not be everyone's favourite, but once it's done, all your future applications will be a very easy straight forward exercise.

I've now done a customers staircase 3 times. First time in oil satin. Second time in johnstones acrylic satin, and last year I went back to do it again, 5 years on, and I was shocked at how fresh it looked apart from the odd scuff, ding and finger mark.

By doing the leg work now with the bridging and extra coats, you are making yourself a very easy time in the future.

The customer will be delighted with the whiteness, the fact that you can do the job for the same price as last time, but you're actually doing the job more quickly so it's more profitable.

Win win.



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:56 pm 
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It’s not all about the whiteness.
I’ve just completed a job where one of the "traditional painter" team had been a couple of years ago. They had used water based satin on the trim with noticeable brush marks. Not severe, but bad enough for the client to notice and not want them back. I explained the differences between WB & OB and they said they would rather slight discolouration over time than an average finish.
Not everybody wants these water based paints.



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:27 pm 
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I think the average customer can be persuaded by whatever case we put across as we are, after all, the "expert".

Personally, I don't offer a choice between oil-based and water-based. If the customer asks the question then I explain the differences and point out that water-based stays whiter for longer but the downside is that an extra coat is usually needed. They always opt for "traditional" oil-based, and 9 times out of 10 ask for satin.



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:36 pm 
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I’ve been messing around with WB on trim for ages now. What I’m not happy about is leaving a job knowing that the finish could’ve been better.
If you’re that good with WB that you can rival an OB finish then I take my hat off to you because I can’t. I can get it good but not perfect. That’s not good enough for me.
I’ve had a good play with them so if OB was ever to disappear (which I don’t think it will, at least not for a good while) I would cope no problem but for now, unless client specifically asks for WB or the job has no UV, then it’s back to OB for me :huray:


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:37 pm 
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Deccy wrote:
It’s not all about the whiteness.
I’ve just completed a job where one of the "traditional painter" team had been a couple of years ago. They had used water based satin on the trim with noticeable brush marks. Not severe, but bad enough for the client to notice and not want them back. I explained the differences between WB & OB and they said they would rather slight discolouration over time than an average finish.
Not everybody wants these water based paints.


I did a job in January where the customer had a downer on waterbased, and I had to use oil.

It was a nightmare. The place stank to high heaven, and when I came back the next day to second coat the woodwork it hadn't fully dried from the day before. I had to go home.

The reason she didn't like waterbased was she didn't think her own previous application was hard wearing. The real reason was she had done absolutely no preparation whilst going over oil. It didn't stand a chance.

After that experience I've told all my customers I'm solvent free, and they don't seem to find or question it.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:36 pm 
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Maybe it is just the oil-based paint that I use but the smell isn't anywhere near as bad as it used to be, with gloss smelling slightly stronger than satin. I have wondered if it's because I am just used to the smell so I don't notice but I always say to a customer about placing a cut onion in the room if the smell is too bad and then the next morning I ask them how the smell was and only a very small minority say it was strong and they used an onion.

I can't remember the last job I had where the first coat wasn't dry by the next morning.

Could it be that oil-based has improved a lot since you water-based fans last used it? (Although fitzy you did say it was only in January :lol: ) Or, could it be that the Dulux Trade oil-based is now better than some other brands? (I know, shock-horror! :shock: :roll: )


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:50 pm 
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Tom d'Angler wrote:
Maybe it is just the oil-based paint that I use but the smell isn't anywhere near as bad as it used to be, with gloss smelling slightly stronger than satin. I have wondered if it's because I am just used to the smell so I don't notice but I always say to a customer about placing a cut onion in the room if the smell is too bad and then the next morning I ask them how the smell was and only a very small minority say it was strong and they used an onion.

I can't remember the last job I had where the first coat wasn't dry by the next morning.

Could it be that oil-based has improved a lot since you water-based fans last used it? (Although fitzy you did say it was only in January ) Or, could it be that the Dulux Trade oil-based is now better than some other brands? (I know, shock-horror! :shock: :roll: )
I still use a bit of cover stain from time to time. I don't think the smell of oils has lessened over time, it's as it's always been.

By using it continually you and your customers won't notice it, in fact some will say they like the smell of the paint.

It's when you've not done a job with it for a while that'll it'll really get up your nose, especially if the painted rads have been turned on overnight.



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:32 pm 
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Quote:
especially if the painted rads have been turned on overnight.


And that smells foul doesn't it! And not even anything like paint! :pukeleft:

I've had two customers do that, despite me advising them otherwise. The first one had the smell in the house for over a week, the other one for about five days. If the rad valves are awkward for the customer to turn back on I always offer to come back on my way home a day or two later and most people are happy to leave the rad off for a while.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:45 pm 
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I actually like the smell of oil-based... and freshly laid tarmac... :help:

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