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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:49 am 
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I know this is ruthlessly simple but it'll work.

Drill 3 holes in the driver or plunger, or..... whatever the technical name for it is

Image

Insert a nail in it, then insert 2 thumb screws horizontally to hold
the nail in place, put a dish in a bolt.

The fact that I might have to file up 20 nails is something I would have to
do anyway with the traditional hammering method.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:54 pm 
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Hi,

Thanks Noel but simple doesn't register with me when I can complicate things; much better to dream up a mechanical punch and then make it?

Your simple idea though would work because I've just made tooling very similar and the good news is that your new punch is fully working piercing tiny slits without removing any metal whatsoever so I think I've satisfied your specifications at last. This morning I've spent an hour or so in the garage playing around with the angle grinder mounted in the big engineering vice; I ground the tool tip much as in your earlier drawings then ground a broken twist drill to a rounded end; I used this with an hammer to punch a tiny cup into one of the dies I had previously made; with the tool and die installed what joy it was to pull the handle effortlessly piercing a piece of tin; next I pierced one of your rings with the same result. Some kind of indexing would be desirable for ring placement and the punching machine will need setting up where you can be comfortable using it in excellent light because there is little space for error; the slots are indeed very tiny but I'm sure I've now got it sorted.

The lighting is bad for taking close up pictures but below are pictures of the bit of tin with the tiny slots pierced; one section shows the slot from above then I turned the bit of tin over punching again and the dimple can clearly be seen which as you desired? Now I'm satisfied the punch works OK much to my relief. I'm clumsy and awkward using the punch because its something totally new to me; I've been using long nosed pliers to position the rings whereas a pair of tweezers would be more suitable and with me in a seated position where I could clearly see the tip of the tool? A bit of practice though would soon have the rings being punched in quantity.

Do you have an angle grinder Noel; a small one of about 100mm like mine which you could secure to a bench with a suitable clamp; mine is fitted with a steel cutting disc this disc being very thin and it does a good job of grinding HSS taking care not to overheat the tool. I'm surprised by how easy I found it to grind the tool tip to such small dimensions; I'll leave this tool and die in the punch knowing it to work then you can clone the tool as many times as you like; the punch accepts 3mm dia HSS so you have a wide choice of material; cheap milling cutters; silver steel and drill bits all will work once ground; both tool and die are locked in position using a single grub screw each and the die base plate is adjustable by slackening two 6mm set screws; to adjust the tool and die are aligned with the set screws loose then whilst pulling the handle to nip both tool and die; the set screws are gently nipped up; undue force is unnecessary; with care the new punch should last many years as long as moving parts are kept lubricated. I hope you'll find it easy to use once you become familiar with it. Once my chum has seen the punch I'll post it off to you in little over a weeks time so Santa will be early this year.

The slits in the pictures look quite large but they are actually tiny being taken in close up.

Kind regards, Col.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:22 pm 
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You did it! Those rings are beautiful, they have a really nice bump to them, I
can't see any unwanted distortion. It's everything I have wanted for the last
2 to 3 years.

Very impressive work that and I really can't thank you enough for it.

Looks like I can settle down to a whole week of forming rings while you show
it off to friends and family.

:thumbright:



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:53 am 
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Hi,

I'm just pleased to help out Noel; I'll send the punch as it is ready to start punching the slits but I'll also add additional blank tool bits for you to grind yourself then you will be independent. I drilled the bottom of the plunger to accept 3mm dia and also 1/4" dia tooling secured with a grub screw each. My initial plan was to use the 3mm for the HSS piercing tool and the 1/4" for a rivet setting tool this being made of silver steel. The rivet setting option is available if you decide to have a go; the silver steel will be easy to indent to accept the rivet; I'll send some silver steel blanks as well.

I'll also let you decide which suits you best for positioning the rings to be pierced; I've crudely pierced rings freehand using a pair of long nosed pliers but found it to be hit or miss in positioning the ring; I'm sure with practice and the punch set up at a decent height with lots of light allowing me to clearly see the tooling I would quickly get used to using it but at the moment my thoughts are of simple indexing which perhaps you can investigate once you receive the punch? The punch can be used either right or left handed and as the tooling is round it can be positioned allowing the ring to be placed directly forward into the tooling or if you prefer the ring can be placed from either side; whichever is most convenient? The design was to allow piercing in bulk then riveting but you have now bought rivet setting pliers so you have a choice?

The die installed and the additional dies are slotted to accept the narrow piercing tool so both need to be aligned; this part of the design was to afford maximum support to the ring during piercing to prevent distortion of the ring and it works a treat. I'm still a total novice Noel to chain maille but looking at the punch from an engineering view if I was heavily into chain maille making I would possibly set up the punch to be pedal operated and have a very basic sliding drawer to position the ring to be pierced giving indexing but this is the way I look at these kinds of project; I love making useful items from bits from the scrap bin; I'm of the old school where we don't skimp on material; this punch is heavy and robust; made from readily available material using tools found in most home workshops.

I would encourage anyone to have a go at making useful items in this manner; the making is most enjoyable and with something useful at the end. As to costs for this punching machine; under £20 the lot; I can stand this because where else could I derive so much pleasure for about a month for so little; doing such projects is my hobby and as such the money spent is regarded as disposable; please look at the finished punching machine and consider where such a machine can be bought for £20? The actual making of the machine was straightforward just requiring care in marking out and cutting or drilling; the design however was a lot more difficult because I was working from a blank sheet of paper; adding the pressure bearing gave additional work but I think is a nice touch because it reduces friction between cam and plunger to an absolute minimum therefore wear too will be greatly reduced between the two parts. This punch is so basic in its design I've been able to put it together from odds and ends I have to hand not needing a dimensioned drawing or anything too technical; I just hope it is ideal for you Noel once you receive it?

This project has dragged on due to our terrible climate and bad lighting; I'm unable to do anything about the climate other than moan but I've already done something about the garage lighting having now installed the five LED panel lights which make a tremendous difference; pity this project came a bit too early for comfort because as I type my garage is not yet fully set up for this kind of work; I've been doing lots of DIY and woodworking so broke off to to venture into this engineering project knowing the lighting was too bad but it's been worth it.

The old fluorescent fittings are being collected this Saturday if not earlier having been advertised on Gumtree totally free of charge unlike eBay and PayPal; your punch will be on its way to you later next week Noel then finally my benches and time are clear for me to at last enjoy a spot of retirement doing what I want to do at my own leisure; I'd love to help everyone out with this type of project but I think the time has come for me to keep my head down because I've got lots of my own projects stacked up. The Clarke lathe still needs a start/stop linkage designing and installing; the beautiful Lorch Schmidt lathe needs a new flat drive belt installing the new belt now to hand; lots of woodturning blanks to attack and I want to clone Robert Sorby spiraling tools; new mobile workbench on castors to make I've now got the castors to hand; the projects are endless and I'm keen to play with all my toys; usually I dread our nine month long dire winters working in a black hole but at last I've now got the LED lighting installed and with a fan heater I think winter in the garage is going to be much more pleasant this time?

Boy I ramble on but I've a bit of time this morning due to being grounded having friends due to visit us in an hour; I'm more comfortable in my workshop kit than in clean clothes? Enjoy your week of ring making Noel; ring piercing using the new punch should be quieter? :thumbleft:

Kind regards, Col.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:11 am 
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You are a good man Col, well done for helping out :thumbleft:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:02 pm 
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Maybe a car port is the next project Col

A winter of research on the best design and ways to stop it blowing down the hillside and you should be good to go at first signs of spring


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:58 pm 
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Hi,

Thanks dandan for your kind comments.

Good idea thescruff; unfortunately a car port here is a non starter; the driveway is too short and extremely exposed here on the valley; one side of the bungalow has a long sloping path up to the rear garden not wide enough for a car port the other side of the bungalow would need a digger and wagon to remove lots of soil and hardcore whilst exposing neighbours drains.



I could remove our front garden and install a shelter similar to the above which I've considered doing. Only this morning I've been talking to our friend Bob who visited us with his wife Mary about this car wetting problem. Bob was keen to inspect our garage with its new LED lighting so I put my heavy parka and hat on saying to Bob watch the weather? It was fine when we left our rear door; immediately I pulled the car out of the garage it received its usual soaking; Bob couldn't believe the timing but I could because I've got Blackie my own personal cloud; if Bron and I drive a couple of miles in any direction away from home the climate improves no end; I'm sick of it and as I type its pouring with rain. First thing I did when I got up this morning was to look to see if the bungalow roof was still in place also if the chimney was still there after last nights gales with terrific wind. Bron and I have a beautiful Skoda Fabia Monte Carlo in black over red which really does attract attention; I'm afraid to let the Monte sleep out given the low life which is so common these days. Ideally I would like to buy something like a Toyota pick up when we next change our car in just under two years time then the pick up could sleep out? We have talked many times about moving but we love our detached bungalow having spent the last 29 years working on it; it's a big bungalow compared to the usual bungalows and to the rear it has a very big garden running up the mountain. If we move it means starting over but with the added rip off costs from estate agents and solicitors etc; very few new bungalows are being built and any new house these days seem in worse condition than an old house? If Bron and I were younger I think a change of country would be best; at least we could choose a better climate because it would be difficult to choose a much worse climate than the one we currently suffer? Anyway I'm moaning once again about the weather; I feel like a prisoner and the dire weather impacts on just about everything I want to do; I'm sitting here now because of it? Below is today's forecast which is standard living here; please disregard Saturday & Sunday's forecast because it's obviously an error apart from the temperatures; it could snow.

On a much happier note if the tap ever gets turned off I've got lots of interesting projects stacked up and hopefully I'll post each as I tackle them. Bob was amazed when I showed him and gave him a demonstration of the new punch by how tiny the slit is it punches into the rings. :thumbleft:

I was browsing the web yesterday and came across "Great Wall" pick-ups; I'd never heard of these previously and they look OK for the price although I think the Toyota will be better but at a much higher price?

http://greatwallmotor.co.uk/?gclid=Cj0KEQiA4LCyBRCY0N7Oy-mSgNIBEiQAyg39thFy4WLgoe2Lvla-logV3I8b5B3Y8R6SPS01JD5tSL4aAgB38P8HAQ



Kind regards, Col.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:17 pm 
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Not a lot better here Col, we had a yellow warning last night.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/3345396

How about a workshop up the garden if you can't extend the garage, perhaps dig a cave in the mountain.



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:31 pm 
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Well... it's a bit nutty but what you could do is hand a side view
drawing of a Skoda Octavia to someone with a big CNC router
and have them create some wooden ribs

Image

Once you had the ribs, you could fashion them
into a roof with an identical shape to the car.

Image

Then all ya have to do is figure out a pully system
that would let you winch the roof up and down over
your car. You would have an exceptionally space
efficient carport in this case.

It's mental, but it's all I have :D



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:41 pm 
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Hi,

Thanks thescruff; the climate in the UK is usually dire wherever you are? A cave in the mountain would hide a decent workshop but I'd have to go through lots of tree roots and remove an incredible amount of material with poor access? I could always sit in front of the TV day in day out moaning all the time? :cb

Some of the nuttiest ideas turn out best Noel; thanks for taking the trouble to post the images. One nutty idea I had a few years ago was to dig up the entire driveway deep enough to allow a car lift to be installed; when not in use the car would be underground whilst I still retained full access to the garage; the problem though doing this if the car windows and doors were closed then given the amount of rainfall the car would rise on its own simply floating to the surface? Perhaps a four post car hoist could be pressed into service quite cheaply; knowing my luck though when I needed the car quickly there would be a power cut? There is absolutely no incentive in the UK to get off my backside because of laws and regulations together with the government and local council wanting money either by way of taxes or extra rates? Planning permission then no end of objections from bone idle people who have nothing else to do; massive VAT added to cost of materials to support our poor but corrupt MP's such as their expenses scandal which has quietened down. Neighbour's and any stranger objecting who appear to have more say in our property than Bron and I have? Success in the UK is a dirty word and anyone making any profit the government wants it? Criminals are looked after in the UK but decent people are ignored especially if the decent person is subjected to attack or harm; what a strange law it is that treats an assailant better than the victim should the victim defend him/herself. I won't accept a penny for any work I carry out now that I'm retired and I decided against starting my own solid oak furniture business fifteen years ago because it just wasn't worth it. I'm happy to potter around in retirement being a drain on society which the government keeps reminding me about; it doesn't count that I've paid my full dues for forty years so am entitled to my old age pension; I'm even taxed on the works pension I paid so much money into so that Bron and I wouldn't end up being social scroungers in our old age; I plan to live until I'm at least 150 in order to upset the government. :thumbleft: Sorry for the ramble but I'm sick of this constant dire weather.

Kind regards, Col.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:33 pm 
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The weather is the Bain of my life , working out doors is 99 percent of my job fitting or repairing windows , fitting windows when it decides to rain is no fun, so I completely understand how being retired and not being able to do what you enjoy because of the blasted weather. I had a awful day today fist of car wouldn't start, then went to do a job at a school fit a new panic bar and rim cylinder bit of work as needed to make plates and make it up as I went along , was all going well till I cut some screws that where to long off with a grinder and cut through my thumb, was a freak accident I covered it over it didn't bleed much and carried on. Wasn't till I finished that I looked at it again and thought I better go hospital, several hours later 1 stitched tendon 1 internal stitch and 3 on the surface. I was so lucky I didn't go right through the tendon. Some days I think your ment to stay in and look out the window ::b :cb
On a brighter note the effort that has gone into the thread is brilliant and I've enjoyed following it. It's nice to see 2 different hobbies being bought together by a forum.
Top work Colin



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Great work Col, I hope Noel is happy with his Christmas present... and to think that *Some-one* suggested

" I just don't think a forum is the place to ask for some one to do a job, but it is a place to ask for recommendations or help"

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The problem with creative types like me, is that, we are never done
wanting tools to enable us to do all kinds of hobby related tasks but
machine shops really can't be bothered because they are either too
busy with big jobs or only interested in big jobs.

Then there is the gap in knowledge in that I generally know what
I want and I generally know how to convey my ideas using 3d imaging
but shops generally want technical diagrams, which is fine, if you are
an engineer but not so fine if you happen to just be a hobbyist.

It's like saying: you need to speak our language otherwise we
aren't going to help. In many ways, I can appreciate why they want
this, but not for something as trivial as a bit of rod, grinded into
a point, because that's just laziness.

Then there are the guys who call themselves blacksmiths and want
you to speak in their language but they themselves have never heard
off or know anything about chainmaile. One would think this would be
on page 1 or 2 of Blacksmithing Fundamentals but it isn't. I remember
having a total meltdown on a blacksmith forums years back over this.
Having to sit and listen to guys tell me that x,y and z cant be done, when
I know they have been done and are done and were done over 2000 years
ago. Having to explain each and every process of chainmaile making to them.

I think I eventually said something like:

"You wouldn't ask a burger flipper to lecture a brain surgeon on cerebral aneurysms
so why ask an IT guy to lecture a place full of Blacksmiths about Blacksmithing. Go
and F*** yourselves!"

It was one meltdown after another and it wore me down to a point where I gave up.
It was one of the worst experiences I have had in recent times.



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:40 am 
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Hi,

Thanks Thewindowguy. You sure had a bad day with your wayward car then cutting into your thumb with the subsequent board and lodgings in the local A&E; I hope things have improved since for you? :thumbleft:

I'm a member of a few forums and on each there are the usual negative types but I just accept them after all we are free to express our own opinions; I do agree though that it's nice when forum members can and are willing to help each other out as in this project. I've just done the three supermarket shopping in torrential rain which of course I really did enjoy so I'm drying out as I type and once again the Monte is soaking wet on the driveway. :cb :cb :cb

Thanks and well said wine~o; if members cannot ask for help on a forum then what's the point of having these forums? As I've just stated some members of forums tend to be negative looking for the downside all the time; it might appear I was railroaded into accepting this project but far from it; I feel humbled that a forum member considered me good enough to help Noel out; I could have declined but having just caught up the timing was good so I was pleased to offer my help and still am even if the project has occupied my time and thoughts for quite a while; I'd much rather be Santa bringing some kindness into someone's life than the child receiving the present; I'm very contended with my own life because I've got Bron by my side so anything else is a bonus.

I'm very sorry to learn of your previous misfortunes Noel whilst trying to get small jobs done in a machine shop and your run ins with blacksmiths?

Obviously I've not been involved or a party involved with these problems but please bear with me as I add my own comments without fear or favour.

I'm a mechanical engineer of the old school having been apprentice trained by highly skilled National Coal Board engineers over 50 years ago; I'm very familiar with both machine shops and blacksmithing so I feel perhaps I can comment without any offence intended or implied.

Take the two bits of metal you require as an example; one a punch the other a die; things surely cannot be simpler to make for a machine shop? Any machine shop is there for one thing only and that is to make profit; the machine shop even a small one will have £thousands invested in tooling and machinery then comes all the overheads such as building and wages plus utility and insurance costs. Your excellent 3D drawings with additional dimensions are very easy for any engineer to understand and certainly a "blue print" isn't required also absolutely no knowledge of chain maille making would be required it's just a very basic punch and die? Walk into the reception and speak to the person in charge explaining what is needed; in turn the details end up at the machinist on the lathe; this machinist has to pull out of stock suitable round bar then cut it to size.

The lathe will certainly not be set up to do the "bit of turning"; the tool in the tool post will probably need changing given the tiny dimensions involved so a piece of HSS tooling needs grinding then the punch can be roughed out as to diameters which on a lathe is very easy to do but what about the very tiny point on the punch now how would a machine shop do this? Grind or mill the point but now the clock really is starting to spin? Setting up the lathe and sorting out the punch point which as you say only requires a bit of grinding is now taking up a lot of time then when the punch is sorted comes the die; if a standard drill bit would be sufficient to add the die indent and a bit of grinding was all that was needed why approach the machine shop in the first place?

I've got £thousands invested in my modest workshop; my lathes take skill to operate and time to set up; the lathe actually does the easy bit of removing metal but on its own it doesn't know what metal to remove so here a lot of time is expended; this applies to my old fashioned manual lathes or even a brand new CNC with DRO; both types of lathe need an operator whether to apply the cut manually or to play with the electronic controls? However basic one of these simple jobs appears to be it is in fact a prototype job hence a lot of time is spent on it?

The way you look at blacksmithing Noel perhaps differs from the way the actual blacksmith sees their role? 50 years ago ponies were still being used in pits but I wasn't trained to make horse shoes or to shoe a horse; chain maille in the following 50 years has never ever been a subject I've been involved with because very few blacksmiths these days are asked to make chain maille and if they did they would most likely refuse on the grounds of time v profit; I certainly couldn't make any profit from making chain maille and unless it was an hobby I wouldn't consider taking such work on. In rural areas blacksmiths will be working on things like farm machinery and implements but nearer towns and cities blacksmiths will possibly be more involved in wrought iron railings and gates; both are blacksmiths in their own right as I was working producing metal items for the pit; I'm sure any blacksmith could make chain maille and even horse shoes but how often would they do such work these days?

I might be totally wrong but hundreds of years ago blacksmiths would be making chain maille but with the passage of time did armourers start to become the people to make the chain mail and other things like swords just as farriers specialized in horses?

You are very involved and interested in chain maille Noel so you feel deeply about the subject and this comes across quite powerfully by your comments but take me for example; I understand and feel at home in machine shops and I've enjoyed blacksmith training but until I became involved in this project I had never seen chain maille close up or handled any having virtually zero knowledge of the subject. No one has seen the amount of time and effort I've put in behind the scenes in designing and making the punching machine using lots of my hand skills.

Making one of these chain maille punches for a complete novice like me was a real challenge and I didn't need to use either of my lathes even whilst making the punching machine; I did actually use the lathe for a bit of metal polishing and to speed up a bit of work but the entire machine I've made can be copied with very few tools. A good engineer doesn't require every possible machine to do such work; by the time modern machines are programmed I can have the job done using old fashioned hand methods which I was trained in. A machine however once set up wins hands down for production runs but for prototypes many times hand work wins through?

I sincerely I hope I'm not preaching in any way but even making this basic punch and die isn't always as easy or quick to make as one would expect; our solicitor chargers around £200 per hour to sit on his backside whilst changing Bron's name to Mr's Brown on our wills which cost us £300 to have drawn up and witnessed; I wonder how such a person would cope working a manual lathe to a tenth of a thou which takes a lot of learning?

Just a few of my personal thoughts Noel and I can understand your anger and frustration; I can see the problem from both parties views? I could have very easily just made the two items you needed and you would have had them long ago but I do genuinely want to help you and by going to the time and trouble I've gone to I've enjoyed the project being able to use my old skills whilst demonstrating to others that there are usually a number of ways to do a job; in the end I got around the problem without even needing a lathe?

Because sleet and snow are forecast for tomorrow I'd better get all the bits sorted out for you Noel today in readiness for posting next week; can I please trouble you for your full name and address by PM or email? :salute:

Kind regards, Col.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 4:27 pm 
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Thanks Colin yes things have picked up got a new battery and my thumb is still attached so can't be all bad :cb
I see there is snow forecast this seems to throw the country in to a panic happens every year!

My dad was a engineer he used to make shoe machines and then went onto making tractor parts and my grandad was a engineer worked for rolls Royce.
I used to visit my dads (funny enough he was called Colin)work place and the vast machinery and tools used to make my little eyes light up! I never had a chance to visit my grandads work sadly but from the pictures and story's my dad told me I get an idea. I still have some of his tools and all my dads hand tools some of them hand made. I never wanted to be a engineer instead a carpenter but has things panned out i never got there and became a window and door engineer sadly my dad never got to see this.
What I'm getting at is in the old days from what I saw people had time to help people there wasn't a big rush no smart phones for distraction and I guess they would have been more than capable of doing noels item. It sad to say that some skills have been lost and and it will only get worse I'm just glad my dad passed his knowledge to me and I had the opportunity and hopefully I'll be able to pass it on.
I have been around tools all my life had my first table saw and my own workshop at 12 I was lucky with my dads guidance I worked safe In fact this week was my worse accident todate.

I think forums bring a lot to the table it means people can share there knowledge and also ask for advice in one place . Everyone has different ideas on how to do things that's what makes the forum diverse and its great that people can offer advice or infant make something if others do not have the experience or tools and it's great that you have thought this project through so it can be done with hand tools !
It's a shame your miles away I would love to visit you under that rain cloud of yours :cb
Keep up the good work



For this message the author Thewindowguy has received gratitude : Retired
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