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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 7:57 pm 
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Hi,

Many thanks Dave54; I feel humbled by your comments. I'm the way I am due to having excellent skilled mechanical engineers beating me up until I learnt all those years ago in the pit; I've been dunked head first into a 45 gallon water butt at the forge many times; sometimes for being thick sometimes for answering back but I did eventually learn and to this day thank every one of the engineers who not only taught me so much but looked after me in their own rough way after all working down a coal mine doesn't half ruin a manicure? One of the younger engineers possibly in his mid twenties called Geoff Gascoigne used to beat myself and my fellow apprentice Roger up because we were forever cheeking him; one day Geoff took on myself; Roger the other apprentice mechanical engineer and Alwyn the apprentice electrical engineer and wiped the floor with us all. In later years we three bounced Geoff. Happy memories which were to form my later life for the better.

I had planned a full day on this punch project tomorrow in spite of the terrible weather; our neighbour Carole has just phoned to ask if I'm busy around 9:15 tomorrow morning? Carole has a tom cat named Max who has a vet's appointment and he is king of Carole's bungalow and when he see's the cat transporter he throws his rattle out of his pram because no way is he going to let Carole put him in? I'll pop round and the easy way is to grab Max by the scruff of his neck lifting all four paws from the ground then lower him into the transporter; he's normally a lovely little lad loved by all but I have the measure of him and he knows it? I might be posting from the A&E later tomorrow? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Kind regards, Col.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:20 pm 
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Sounds as if you'll need a suit of chain mail yourself tomorrow then Col? :-)

Where I did my apprenticeship there was a training school. We did nearly two years in there before we were let out into "the works" The guys who did the training were OK. Tough but fair. They wouldn't take much cheek though! Certainly not off the first years! We were taught basic fitting (File that piece of black bar into bright :-)) Basic machining, blacksmithing, sheet metal work, and gas and arc welding as well as basic electrics. You then chose which trade you wanted to do. I did the electrical course for the last twelve months, and finished my time as a sparks, although the fitting chap wanted me to be a tool maker. Happy days really. Lots of interesting things to do, and good mates.



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:00 pm 
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Hi,

Thanks Dave54; I was lucky this morning putting Max into the transporter; Bron and I went round to Carole's and she had the transporter door open it sitting on the hall floor; as we talked Max came and being nosy wandered to the transporter and was looking through the open door when suddenly he found himself inside with the door closed so no hassle at all.

I started my apprenticeship with the National Coal Board in 1962 aged 15 having only just left secondary modern school. I started work at the Grange Ash Colliery Grange Moor where it was "hand getting" this was one of the old deep pits which had not been mechanized. The first six months I worked at the shaft head with the banksman; my job was to ensure the pit tubs were put into the cage facing the correct way; I spun many thousands of these tubs on heavy steel plate in all weather. This was my introduction to working life and it was heavy work for a kid but I stuck it out.

Next I worked alongside my fellow apprentice Roger scrapping pit tubs using hammer and cold chisel; it was quicker to chop the rusty nuts off than to try to unscrew them; I soon got the hang of it after belting my hand many times with the 2lb hammer. Some days we would assist (hinder) in the workshop and forge. At 15 years old we were not allowed to play with machinery but on my 16th birthday I was sent to Crigglestone Colliery training centre on a six month course where I was taught to use hand tools and later in the course machines like lathes and shapers plus time in the forge learning gas and arc welding. I completed the course very quickly and used to wander over to the apprentice electricians; often I was allowed home on full pay at dinner time; I enjoyed my time there. I've never forgotten that training and bless the time I spent on that course. Back at the pit both Roger and I were now let loose with oxy/acetylene cutting torches so waded into scrapping tubs with a vengeance. Grange Ash was coming to the end of its useful life so Roger and I were transferred to The Caphouse Colliery now The Mining Museum. You are so right about good mates; our lives depended on each other. Since those days I've had many jobs but always grafted for a living.

Right now back to the plot; are you sitting down Noel because I've succeeded with this punch project; I spent the morning in the garage and have now successfully punched two of the rings you kindly sent me adding rectangular rivet holes with very little distortion. The first hole was offset because the punch was not fully set up and still isn't but the second ring I placed under the punch using long nosed pliers and the result can be seen in the pictures below; front; back and edge pictures show the result of using the punch and although I'm pleased to have created a working punch I'm more pleased that I've managed to help you out. I think I can now complete the punching machine in the near future and let you have it to play with. I was surprised by how much effort is required to punch these tiny holes but with the punch bolted down securely it should give decent results for you. I've done what I set out to do in punching the rectangular hole now I want to sort out the round holes then you will have a choice.

I haven't measured the length of the hole but I can now play around with sizes and possibly the round holes might be easier to punch for you Noel in that I think they might be easier to do simply having a round punch and die?

This turned into an interesting project for me to play around with; I'm still having lots of problems with lighting in the garage otherwise I could have got everything bang on. :thumbleft:

Kind regards, Col.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 5:26 pm 
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Those rings are looking good Col.

We always used to leave the cat's carrying cage on the floor for a day or so before use. We used to leave it open and on the floor near a radiator(in the Winter) with a clean old towel or something in there. Our cats used to make themselves at home, weren't stressed by the cage, and gave little trouble at the vets.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 5:40 pm 
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The slits are undeniably excellent, well done Colin.
There is one issue that I wasn't expecting and that is the lack of
the bulging effect that you are supposed to get as the slit is made.
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The bulge is both historically accurate and useful, since it makes the rivet
easier to both set in place and to close. This goes back to the need to have
a dish. It may actually be better to have a die, with a simple dish drilled into
it and I would rather have that, than additional tooling for circular punched
rings, as you have clearly demonstrated that the wedge riveting method is
possible on a 6mm scale.

Thanks for all the amazing work.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 5:52 pm 
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Quote:
There is one issue that I wasn't expecting and that is the lack of
the bulging effect that you are supposed to get as the slit is made.

The bulge is both historically accurate and useful, since it makes the rivet
easier to both set in place and to close.


Nice to see that Col has improved on the original design of chainmail....

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 7:51 pm 
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Hi,

Thanks Dave54. What you did with your cats cage makes a lot of sense and I'll pass the information on to Carole whom I'm sure will be most appreciative.

Thanks Noel for your kind comments. I've misunderstood your requirements relying on my own experiences of riveting where the rivet goes right through and is properly set giving equal strength from both sides? However I've proved to myself that I can in fact punch tiny parallel rectangular rivet holes so I'm pleased with the result because I've never attempted to make a riveting punch machine like this previously and I'm on a ballistic learning curve as usual. Yes I did on purpose design the punch to remove the metal from the hole and without distortion which has really tested my imagination and determination; I confess I still am unsure how the pointed rivets used in this chain mail are set so more research and more thought is now required?

It's how I've wrongly interpreted what you need Noel after all in your very first post you clearly show a pointed punch with a cup type die; I thought a parallel hole type rivet would be the strongest and could not visualize how a pointed rivet is set when there is such a bulge? This is in no way a problem for me Noel because I designed the mechanical side of the punch so that it would accept various punches or dies; all I need to do now is to fully grasp exactly what you need and then I'm sure I can help you out? I went to great lengths with the die in order to prevent blow out but in reality you want blow out on the rivet hole but in a controlled way so as you say a rounded die will be needed but also with a tiny slot to accept the very tip of the pointed punch? Whatever the design this punching machine can easily be adapted. :thumbleft:

I've got new LED panel lighting due tomorrow Noel so I'll leave this project for a short while whilst I install the new panels but rest assured as soon as I can I'll be experimenting more; now how can I add very small round countersinks into steel dies? With new lighting in the garage I might be in with a chance of seeing what I'm doing?

Nice one wine~o and thanks. Yes I thought I was on to a winner with my tiny punched holes removing the waste metal so neatly with very little blow out indeed; I was taught to think for myself and to never accept something as right just because it's the way it's been done previously; I'm forever looking at improving and in this instance it's caught me out but what an interesting project this has been for me and still is for a little while longer until I can give Noel the perfect punching machine to solve his problem; should I chrome plate it? :scratch:

Please watch this space because this project is not yet over and I'm not going to quit until both Noel and I are happy.

Kind regards, Col.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 3:00 am 
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This is only my interpretation of why this riveting technique works.
I wouldn't take it as gospel or anything.

When closing the rivet, the tip of it is obviously subjected to force.
The rivet cannot go forward, nor, can it go back, so instead, the tip
of the rivet expands outwards while the center of the rivet begins
to bend.

Image

However, if the rivet didn't have the dome to rest inside, then
that would mean that the back of the rivet would be exposed and
would rub against whatever the soldier was wearing, probably
a padded Gambeson. This would tear the Gambeson up pretty
bad.

The dome then, offers a place for the back section of the rivet to
rest inside. It naturally bends downwards and therefore does not
damage any clothing or cause discomfort for the wearer.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 9:31 am 
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Hi,

Many thanks for the drawings Noel; I think I now grasp what I need to do? I've been giving this more thought since last night and with very light modifications I might already be just about there. At the moment I've got a punch with a 2mm x 0.3mm parallel tip; all I need to do is convert this tip into a point taking care of the punch. Next I think it possible I can use the dies I've made with their 2mm x 0 5mm hole by adding a cup at 2mm dia; depth by experimentation; the original slot will give clearance for the punch tip point?

I've got carbide end milling cutters with rounded ends but not at 2mm dia so I wonder if I can grind a 2mm HSS twist bit giving a rounded tip; one way to find out is to give it a go; it took a while but I succeeded in punching the tiny slot so I'm confident I can punch a slit? What skills the old craftsmen must have had all those years ago in order to make the chain maille; I really do take my hat off to them; I've got far superior workshop facilities and it took me quite a while before I punched the rectangular hole? :salute:

My main problem is poor lighting; even using the 240V 60W inspection lamp isn't a huge help because of shadows; unaided by needing new glasses; I'm in the process of upgrading the lighting and I'll buy new glasses shortly. WOW the five new LED panel lights have just arrived; I only ordered them mid afternoon yesterday.

I could go way over the top in designing and making this punching machine but it's one thing me doing it in my workshop with lots of kit but I need to consider others with less kit so I'm trying to keep it as simple as possible using readily available materials; so far I think hacksaw; files and drill are the main bits of kit needed? You might have a new toy for Christmas Noel.

Kind regards, Col.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:03 pm 
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Hi,

Will the last week of this month be OK for you Noel assuming I can sort the punch out to suit your needs? The reason for the slight delay is that our friends are visiting us on the 25th and are very interested in my activities so it would be good to retain the punch for them to see working? It also gives me plenty of time to do some experimenting with the punch. I'm currently bogged down installing the new LED panels in the garage but I'm keen to get the punch sorted as well; I've got lots of other projects stacked up which I've been eagerly looking forward to. The new Balata flat drive belt for the Lorch lathe arrived today so I'm in for another steep learning curve of belt stitching but I need to complete the punch first then I'll be free to potter around. :thumbleft:

Kind regards, Col.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:58 pm 
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Yes that perfectly fine colin, as most of my time will be spent forming rings, just waiting for hitches
anvil to arrive so I can get started.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:38 pm 
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Hi,

Good news isn't it Noel that you've now got the anvil Hitch kindly made for you; I bet your hammer can be heard for miles around now as you get your production line set up?

I need to do my bit and get the punch over to you; I've just one more LED light panel to install in the garage then I'm back onto the punch; I'm now rained off once again; I get fed up of having to wash and dry the car each time I pull it out of the garage; I did well today though; I put the car away at dinner time just as the rain arrived; I'm seldom so lucky though. Your punch is top of the list. :thumbleft:

Kind regards, Col.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:22 pm 
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Hi,

Tomorrow I'm fully back on the punch for you Noel; I've now installed the new LED light panels in the garage so can see at last what I'm trying to do? I've been doing a bit of researching on the web to give me a clear picture and understanding of what I need to do. I've been looking at pictures of assorted chain maille and picture #3 shown below is I believe what you are wanting to do with the triangular rivets? All I need to do now is to sort out tooling for the punch; my only concern is that whilst punching the shallow cup will it badly deform the joint? Looking at picture #3 I now understand the reason for the shallow cup. Picture #2 shows lovely detailed rings which are embossed with a pattern. I'll see what I can come up with by a bit of experimentation and report back shortly. :thumbleft:

Kind regards, Col.

I've just found the following interesting YouTube video;



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:12 pm 
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Putting aside for a moment the fact his rings are so big you could drive a bus through them :lol:
This isn't a particularly great way to do it, that is, drilling rings, I mean yes, you could do it that way
but in doing so you are losing metal.

The second image is the method I am interested in as is the more period authentic way of doing it.
Seems like all the pictures here are using rings 9mm or above, which is great if you are just starting
off but if its museum quality chainmaille you are aiming to achieve then 6mm.

http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/c ... 8&partId=1


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:04 am 
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Hi,

Thanks Noel. I'm only at the very basic stages when it comes to chain maille knowledge so I've been looking at lots of websites and viewing YouTube videos in order to gain a bit of working information; watching the video I posted helped me focus allowing me to gain another step into sorting the tooling out for the new mechanical punch I've just made. It would be pointless me using the lathe to make a couple of punching tools because these would eventually wear out leaving you back where you started but with a useless machine? This is all new to me at least chain maille is and I'm trying to come up with a solution of making tooling that anyone can do with basic kit. It's only a short while ago that I took on this project and I want to try my best at improving upon hitting a common nail with an hammer hence the new machine. Please bear with me and I'll get there in the end; I've already spent a lot of time and effort in reaching this stage now I'm having a go at the tooling which this is all about. Any prototype is a gamble until proved and I might end up having put all this effort in for nothing. I'm a novice with chain maille but hopefully my mechanical engineering background will win through. Its going to be interesting for me working with decent lighting in the garage; I'm keen to sort this punching problem out for you so fingers crossed it won't be long now? :thumbleft:

Kind regards, Col.

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