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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:42 pm 
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I can wait as long as it takes Colin. Hitch was telling me, he might be
able to help me out with a little anvil I want for forming the rings, if
this proves true then I'd probably rather than the little anvil first of
all while you play around with drifting and punching the rings.

I'll be forming rings for a month before even looking at the need
to rivet them you see, so time for me is plentiful for this project.


Thanks again

Noel


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:22 pm 
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Hi,

Thanks Noel; I'm not in a hurry to complete the punch but I do want to move the project forward because I have lots of other projects stacked up which I'm keen to get on with; I promised you up front that I wouldn't mess you around as others already have so I got stuck into it and I hope you are sitting down; I've just come out of the garage after successfully punching the first holes with my new punching machine. WOW what a difference between rough punching with a nail and punching with the new machine; the nail distorted the metal leaving it very ragged but the new punch has just punched four very clean holes without tear-out or distortion; I think I've more or less cracked it now with just fine detail to sort out.

I've only set the punch up just to try punching and I've used one of the 3mm milling cutters which I removed the flutes from leaving it just blank; my first experiment was with the 3mm cutter but as a die I drilled a 3.5mm hole in some thick plate; the initial punching was in very thin tin and a number of holes were clear but the odd hole left the flap attached like an hinge. My next attempt was still using the 3mm cutter but this time I drilled a 3mm hole in the die. It's very dark here again today and even with the strip lights switched on I had a lot of difficulty in aligning the punch and die but with patience and without even securing the die I punched very neat clean holes at 3mm dia in 0.7mm galvanized sheet. It's possible the galvanized sheet will be tougher than the rings to punch but a firm tug on the lever produced a sharp crack as the punch did its job; 3mm dia is a lot bigger than the hole size needed; as I say I've only been experimenting but I'm so far delighted with the outcome. The picture shows the ragged holes I did whilst experimenting with a nail the other four holes I've just punched with the new machine; what a dramatic difference between the two experiments. Over the next week or so I'll refine the machine then hopefully Santa will soon be visiting you Noel? :thumbleft:

Top marks Hitch for joining in with the anvil; I kept my head down on this because I was so busy still making the punching machine but if Noel had become stuck I'd have helped out; I'm still dreaming of using my Graduate lathe and making spiraling tools for it to experiment with; Robert Sorby spiraling tools are excellent quality as reflected in the cost of them; I can make similar tools from my scrap bin; there is so much kit in my scrap bin it just needs putting together. :lol: :lol: :lol:



What a performance in trying to take the picture; I've ended up using my Nikon DSLR camera; If I was a stick of rhubarb I'd be 15' tall given how dark it usually is here on the valley side?

One thing I need to do quickly before I jump up and down on this computer is to sort out the way it is guessing what I type; it's changing words a lot differently to what I'm typing and its driving me round the bend having to keep correcting them; it can't spell either. I've suffered this problem before so have a good idea how to sort it out. :cb

My beautiful Lorch lathe is now out of action; I've put a knife through the leather drive belt because I became sick of it slipping and the adjustment had reached its limit; just another job to do on a long list but better than being bored. I might convert the Lorch installing a VFD and new belt drive system to get rid of the old leather drive belt problem once and for all; I can't stand kit which doesn't work as it should.

Kind regards, Col.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:55 pm 
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The punch is of quite remarkable quality, kind of like the result I would
expect from one of those great big hydraulic forming machines they
use in the shops.

Beyond any doubt at all, it provides well in excess of the force needed
for chainmaile making. My only hope now is that the drift can force it's
way through each ring without deforming.

I just bought a pair of pliers for setting and close wedge rivets. I wasnt
aware they existed until now.

http://gdfb.co.uk/riveting-tool-pliers-946-p.asp

Thanks Colin.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:32 am 
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Hi,

Thanks Noel. I might have gone slightly over the top with this punch but it could have been even more robust had I a few bits of RSJ and some 1" plate kicking around; I like kit that's made to last unlike much of the modern tinny stuff made to last until the warranty expires?

Next sessions in the garage will be focused upon the tooling which after all are the most important parts; ideally I'd like to use high quality HSS tool steel and sort out how to harden the die but I'll get there; it just takes time. I think I'm in for quite a challenge in trying to make a hardened die with a rectangular hole of only 2mm x 0.3mm; such a slot is tiny as can be seen if you look at a ruler or tape measure but it's not impossible its just that I'm new to such small work. I'm going to have to sort some better lighting out in the garage before I continue; it's another black hole today and the forecast is poor as usual for the next week not that I need to look at the forecast. It's Rufforth Auto Jumble this Saturday which I'm looking forward to; I might find some decent tool steel; a guy on one stall in the middle of the hanger sells lots of Aero-space quality tools like hand files and drill bits; on one occasion he was demonstrating a large hand file by placing a 2p coin on it and tilting the file to a good angle before the coin slid free to show the top quality of the tool. I've been using some of these files on this project. There are also many very cheap tools which are ideal for the occasional user. A few months ago I bought from Rufforth 25L of genuine Creosote; to buy Creosote these days from a supplier you need a license so I grabbed it whilst available; it flattened me though carrying it back to the car.

Well done Noel in locating and buying the setting pliers; just what you need at the right time and at a fair price. It's all slowly coming together for you which I'm pleased about. :thumbleft:

The hardest part of doing any projects in the garage isn't the actual projects but it's the dire weather; I detest this climate with a passion; get out of bed in a black hole and look out of the window to see a dreary dull day; I simply find it hard to get off my backside to wander into the cold garage. I know its no good moaning because other than leave the UK I'm unable to improve the weather but if I was warm and comfortable with good lighting I could do so much more? :cb

Kind regards, Col.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:04 am 
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The days are certainly getting dull aren't they :-(

LED lighting is really good these days, it's so efficient
that a 10w LED bulb provides the equivalent to 100w's
of light from from one of those older filament bulbs.

One thing that upsets people about them is the
spectrum they emit is not quite the same as the old
bulbs but, I am already well adjusted to that. Most
of the lights in my home are only 1w LED, it's not
quite bright enough if you want to do work really, but
fantastic savings on the electricity bill. 4300w's would
be what our home would consume on older bulbs, if
all the lights were on.

They don't emit much in the way of heat however, so
if you haven't already converted your house over to LED
lighting, you can use all that saving on getting a nice
heater for your garage.

Anyways.

Very excited to see how the drift works out. I'm supposing that
only the tip of the drift needs to be tempered, in which case,
you could deferentially heat treat the bit. Since the tip should be
comprised of... very little in the way of material, it should get up
to heat very quickly indeed. If you have trouble getting it done*
I can toss it into our coal fire for a few hours then quench it in
ice water, this should get the desired effect.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:15 pm 
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Hi,

Thanks Noel; yes the days are very dull indeed making everything gloomy. Thanks for your LED information; a while ago I converted our four kitchen R50 spotlights to LED only costing about £12 the lot; I agree the light is quite a bit different but good enough as you say for general work. I need to look into better lighting but I'm rather too busy at the moment. I'll also convert the rest of the bungalow lights to LED but as usual it will take time because nothing is standard so different sizes of LED's will be needed.

You can now start to feel excited Noel because I've enjoyed a big breakthrough in the garage this morning; I had a nice couple of hours experimenting; these punch tools are tiny at 3mm max dia so grinding on the 6" grinder would be difficult; I have some thin cutting discs for steel to fit my angle grinder and for a while I've been considering arranging a mount for the angle grinder so this morning finally sorted it as seen in the pictures. Sorting the angle grinder mount out proved to be incredibly easy once I started; just two offcuts of timber; threaded rod with washers and nuts and job done; this now enables quick mounting of the angle grinder in the engineering vice.

The breakthrough is that I came up with an idea of how to produce a die to accept the 2mm x 0.3mm punching tool? I had been rather pre-occupied with this because how the heck could I add such a tiny rectangular slot into anything; in a previous post I mentioned using square tool steel forming a sandwich but I came up with a much better and neater solution. So far this has been the most difficult part of this project but I succeeded; 0.3mm is incredibly thin when working in a home workshop with inadequate lighting; I can work to very fine tolerances on the lathes but producing a slot of this size really has tested my imagination.

The picture below shows the new die with the tiny slot so how did I do this; I'll not explain just yet but how would any member produce such an accurate slot; no catches because it can be done because I've done it as the picture confirms; just for interest any ideas? I'm not smart in any way and admit this was a real puzzler to me.

I now need to refine the punches and dies Noel but I think I'm onto a winner assuming the punch will indeed punch such tiny slots; I'll know pretty soon because when I get the chance I'll try this prototype out in the hope it doesn't buckle. The angle grinder worked a treat and I think I can arrange guides to accurately grind the punch tools because I'm currently working by eye and feel. This prototype slot is actually 0.5 wide x 2mm long; I allowed the extra for punch clearance which isn't bad at all given the primitive grinder set up; I'll get better with practice.

Given just how thin the tip is on this punch Noel I think to put it into a glowing fire would destroy the very tip because there is little body to it at all? My plan however to get around this is as you know to use ready tempered HSS for the punch obtained from the milling cutters but for the die I think I can make these of silver steel and simply heat and quench to rock hard; I'm unsure as to tempering but if they can be made easily then if one becomes damaged it can be quickly replaced; these dies when made of silver steel can be placed in a suitable holder so only the die itself would require replacing; I'm working away in the background dreaming up ideas when I'm not in the garage; I concentrate on each problem as it arises and it is the problems which add so much interest for me; making the punching machine I found easy; new ideas however take more effort?

No reward for coming up with ideas of how you would make a small die but can anyone suss out how I did it just for fun? :scratch:

Kind regards, Col.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 10:43 am 
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If I was forced to take a stab at it. I'd say you started off with a bit of rod.
You may have bored into it to make it hollow. Then possibly you have made
a bigger version of the drift to pierce it, making it into a die.

:dunno:



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 11:48 am 
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Hi,

Thanks for having a go Noel and you are on the right track with your solution; the die rod is 10mm long. I didn't punch it because the punch would be too weak to pierce the thickness? There's no catch to the question and I've mentioned one method I could use but the method I used to produce this particular die is better and quite easy. The lighting is so poor that on very close examination this die slot measures just under 3mm but then it's only the prototype and the method I'm using can produce a die of just about any size? I was just interested to see if any member could come up with another way of making these tiny dies because generally there is usually more than one way to do a job; I've already found two and there might be others? I will confess though that I found this die problem a difficult one to resolve and it took me ages. To give a better understanding I'm happy to include rough 3D drawings showing the type of die I'm using so far but as I say someone might have a better solution than mine and I'm always willing to learn? Please bear in mind that I'm more dim than bright so nothing high tech is involved.

I'll let the question run a bit to see if someone comes up with the same method I used? Any ideas as to style of die and method of making the die are most welcome as long as the hole can be made to 2mm x 0.3mm. It can be any shape; I chose round for ease. Time for a bit of head scratching? :thumbleft:

I ordered two lengths of 1/4" dia silver steel Noel and these have now arrived so I've got plenty of material to make dies. What I now need is some decent weather unlike the weather I'm suffering today which once again is terrible.

I visited Rufforth Auto Jumble this morning and it was a wash out; the roads were more like lakes and in the dark it was highly dangerous running into one of the deeper lakes which tried to wrench the steering wheel from my hands; I couldn't see the lakes or road humps in the dark; driving through Ossett I avoided the many road humps by straddling the white line driving down the middle of the road; great assets to safety are the humps (NOT). The entrance to the stalls at Rufforth was under water so a guy threw a big pallet into the pond forming a bridge; there were only two outside stalls trying to set up when I arrived and when I left I think there were only four outside stalls. In the big hanger it was the usual black hole; I wanted to buy 1/4" dia drill bits and the Aero-space guy who is always there was missing just because I wanted him this time; another stall had thousands of drill bits but I couldn't see the sizes so asked the stallholder for help but he too couldn't read the sizes; I hate this climate and always have hated it. However it didn't dampen my spirits too much because I parted with £60 so have brought some goodies home if not the actual ones I wanted. I'll be attending Rufforth again next month if the snow isn't too deep. :cb

I'll press on Noel with the punch over the next week because I want to post it to you allowing me to get on with other projects; the hard work is done and the problems encountered resolved so I'm pleased. If no one can suss out how I made the die I'll post the details tomorrow. :thumbleft:

Kind regards, Col.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 1:54 pm 
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You have a very (very) small hollow chisel morticer that will will work in steel? :lol:

Did doing it involve boring from the back to reduce the depth of material as Noel said, and then chain drilling the slot, and squaring up by using an appropriately ground lathe tool to "nibble" the rest of the waste out a bit like a shaper. Possibly by chucking the die in the lathe, and moving the tool in and out by moving the toolpost back and forth?

I'm probably way out, but I love a puzzle!



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 4:05 pm 
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Hi,

Thanks Dave54; I bet both you and Noel now have this problem on your minds? Both of you have put good suggestions forward but still not the way I did it. Your way Dave54 could possibly work because what you are suggesting is a way key-ways can be cut in bores and even near "broaching"? The 2mm length of the slot is hard enough but the 0.3mm width really is a head scratcher; as I say the answer didn't come easy to me and I've got a lot of experience in metalwork but not on this tiny scale so the problem tormented me right from the start because I knew this would be the hardest part to sort out. During the day I find it hard to really concentrate but in the middle of the night when all is peaceful and quiet I get rare moments of inspiration. As with any problem once the solution is known it looks so easy and this is so incredibly easy that it amazes me it worked. I won't keep you guessing too long so I'll post what I did tomorrow. Two excellent replies so far though. Please don't forget that I'm not the sharpest tool in the kit or smart in any way; I'm very pleased though to have found a solution to the problem that anyone can do in their home workshop without recourse to expensive kit. So far it's unique to me because I've never seen it done previously. :salute:

It's now time I washed and dried the car AGAIN because its soaking wet. I've just cut six die blanks Noel so a bit nearer completion.

Kind regards, Col.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 4:36 pm 
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A shark, with a laser beam strapped to it's head?

I know, that's just stupid.....you couldn't train a shark to stay still that long after a nights thinking......

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 4:58 pm 
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Hi,

Thanks BG; I was always reminded in meetings that there were no stupid ideas so we could dream on. Your idea has merit strange as it seems; do it underwater and it keeps it cool. :lol: :lol: :lol: I should have mentioned I don't own a laser and heat isn't involved.

That's the car washed; dried and put away between huge downpours.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 6:03 pm 
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Retired wrote:
Hi,

Thanks BG; I was always reminded in meetings that there were no stupid ideas so we could dream on. Your idea has merit strange as it seems; do it underwater and it keeps it cool. :lol: :lol: :lol: I should have mentioned I don't own a laser and heat isn't involved.

That's the car washed; dried and put away between huge downpours.

Kind regards, Col.


You do have a shark then? :lol:

It's that 0.3 mm that gets me. It's small. . .

Piercing saw and careful work?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 10:23 am 
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Hi,

Thanks Dave54; no I don't have a shark but there are plenty of two legged types in the world?

Your piercing saw suggestion could work; I'm unsure how fine my piercing saw blades are but some of them are very fine indeed and if the die was secured in a holder to stabilize it then I'm sure with a bit of practice using a piercing saw would produce the required rectangular hole; excellent idea and although I'm used to using piercing saw blades I hadn't considered it as an option in this case. Still not my method though so here is how I did it.

As I lay in bed fully awake in the middle of the night this problem of making the die was really bugging me because I had spent a lot of time thinking about it and now I was awake with it on my mind. I was thinking about lots of possibilities and it was the 0.3mm which was causing so much trouble because this measurement is tiny even a cut on the lathe at this depth would be not much more than a scratch? As usual I was thinking of all the complicated solution's first then I decided to take it back to basics and try to break the problem down if I could. I needed to cut a rectangular hole 2mm x 0.3mm in size? The 2mm was easy because a drill bit would easily do this so immediately half the problem was solved now for the 0.3mm Drilling a 2mm hole would of course give a round hole so the gap would need to be reduced? I couldn't add packing pieces but could I reduce the gap another way then suddenly I had the answer and was keen to try the idea out.

Next session in the garage I cut a blank for the die and bored axially right through at 2mm taking care to let the drill bit do its work without trying to rush and break the bit. Now with my digital vernier caliper in my hand I started to search for some metal that was approximately 0.3mm thick? Lath shims; sheet metal and even transformer winding's were measured then I decided to measure an old hacksaw blade; great at 0.5mm the hacksaw blade would be perfect to experiment with and the extra thickness might actually be a bonus because it would give a bit of clearance for the punch and the hacksaw blade was tough steel. I broke the blade in half and although I dislike using the corner of the 6" grinding wheel I was keen to try the idea out so ground away excess blade at the end leaving a strip very near 2mm wide by about 6mm long squaring the end. No it wasn't going to be a punch it was going to be a "former". I firmly inserted the blade into the 2mm dia hole in the die then took both to my big engineering vice; the die and blade were positioned carefully in the vice jaws just to nip the end of the die to about 4mm deep then the vice was nipped up tightly to close the die onto the blade; WOW it worked now all I had to do was to turn the die and blade 90 degrees and nip again to ensure the 2mm had not become elongated. The blade was tight but pulled free using pliers and a good tug and the previous picture shows the rectangular hole.

I now need to refine the method and have already sorted a wooden mounting allowing my angle grinder to be mounted in the vice and the angle grinder is fitted with a very thin steel cut off disc. This will save rounding over the corners on the 6" grinder. The top of the die deformed a bit but is easy to file or grind flat then if silver steel is used the die can be heated to cherry red and plunged into cold water to case harden it which I intend to do. The lower part of the die the 2mm hole can be opened up to give waste clearance before hardening. My plan for mounting the die is to make a holder of 3/4" square BMS; I'm using 1/4" dia silver steel for the die and the die is 1/2" long (sorry to keep changing from imperial to metric but I'm playing around with material I have to hand) the BMS will be drilled to accept the die at 1/4" dia and cross drilled and tapped to accept a grub screw which will become clearer a bit later. The lower part of the BMS can be opened up to 3/16"dia to allow waste clearance.

Yesterday I cut six die blanks and drilled three at 2mm dia these to be dies with rectangular holes the other three I drilled at 1.5mm dia as an experiment using round rivets so Noel can have a choice of rivet; all six were opened up from the bottom for waste clearance then I washed and dried the car again.

I thought global warming had reached Yorkshire first thing this morning because I was amazed as I looked out of the kitchen window to see the patio dry and from the front window could see the Victoria Tower over the other side of the valley; this really did alarm me but I'm relaxed once again because it's now the usual black hole and pouring with rain so all is well.

I'm more relieved than smug in finding an easy working solution to adding the rectangular hole into a die; as I've said this problem has bugged me from the very start of this project; I've never seen my method used in this way previously but the technique has lain dormant with me for over 50 years to the time I was taught black smithing where we punched holes into red hot steel and we used to beat red hot steel to all kinds of shapes; I'm normally dim but do get moments of inspiration and thankfully I've just enjoyed such a moment. Easy isn't it once the answer is known but what a huge problem this tiny hole has been to me. I'm now trying to resolve the poor lighting problem in the garage and I need new glasses because I've worn my current pair out by looking through them so much.

Sorry Noel for the delay but I'm fed up of washing and drying the car after every session in the garage; I must have been very bad in an earlier life to be born in a Yorkshire dire climate. The joke is though two days continuous sunshine brings a panic of water shortage; hosepipe ban and threat of standpipes. Years ago after rare days of dry weather our local water company spent a fortune using tankers to bring water to our local reservoir.

Strange Noel how this has blown up into a full size project from its humble beginnings of simply using a hammer and pointed nail; after the many hours work I've put in and endless thinking about it I just hope I can supply a fully working reliable punch for you to use; success is never guaranteed but my fingers are crossed.

Kind regards, Col.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 12:49 pm 
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Very clever Col! It proves the old saying that "An engineer is someone who, for five bob, can make what any bloody fool can make for a quid"
You are indeed an engineer! :salute:



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