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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:10 pm 
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Hi,

Thanks Noel; I'll be pleased to receive them then I'll know what I'm playing with.

Thanks DWD its coming along nicely now.

Many thanks BG for the LED panel information and for the picture; the five strip lights I installed generally do a good job of overall lighting but the trouble is when I'm trying to see finer detail like scribe marks and for my lathe work where I need a lot of accuracy; the main problem is that I move around a lot in the garage from machine to machine and bench to bench; I've tried Screwfix site lights which simply dazzled me and where big and clumsy; I've tried a LED floodlight but had to keep moving it around it also got in the way and many times I was creating a shadow on the work; this week I've been using an inspection lamp whilst turning. The LED panels though look like a good option. I did wonder about rigging up lots of low voltage LED's to throw light just where needed but obviously I have a problem with lighting and at the moment I'm much to busy to sort it out. You are bang on though regarding washing the car; I love the Monte but I'm sick of this dire climate messing it up all the time; what a surprise I washed and dried it again this afternoon then I too had a good soak but in the bath.

Thanks flash22 for the pictures; light coloured walls help but in the garage a lot of wall space is taken up with benches and tools; as BG says though I think LED's have a lot going for them and 240V plug and play LED's are now available cheaply at our local "Home Bargains" I've already bought four LED's and converted the spotlights in the kitchen; three LED light panels and a number of individual LED's might be the answer?

The punch machine is now a toddler Noel; it got its legs today so can stand on its own much to my delight; cutting this thick metal using a hacksaw then filing is good exercise; I dislike welding on the garage floor because crouching down is very unsteady but the alternative is to weld at bench height with the risk of messing everything up with weld splatter; not my best welding job today but at least the components aren't likely to fall apart easily. I'm now concentrating on adding the lever which involves more cutting;filing;welding. This morning I successfully made the new lever; the cam took a lot of effort to cut out; a rusty lever doesn't cut it with me so I polished it on the lathe; the picture shows what I use for raw material; it's amazing what can be made from scrap with a little imagination; I tend to hoard all lumps of metal just for this sort of project; it costs nothing but is most satisfying to turn scrap into something useful. For those without a welder using fabricated angle iron with nuts and bolts would do the same job; I'm using the welder because I have it. Sorting out the cam took a bit of thinking about but I think it will work; I'll know pretty soon once I weld on the brackets to accept it. For strength I added buttresses to the rear base; these need a bit more fettling to clean them up; The longish round bar through the bearing is intended to be used for a couple of springs the springs to retract the plunger after plunging; I hope the idea works? In reality this machine is a prototype and as with every prototype it takes a great deal more time to make; once a prototype is made its easy then to copy but working from a blank sheet of paper with a basic idea sure tests imagination. I'm working entirely on my own from the very first thought to the finished machine so I'm pleased so far with my progress.

I've had a nice day in the garage and after the tap was turned off it turned into a nice warm afternoon; the car was even almost dry but what the heck I thought I'd wash and dry it anyway so it's sparkling again.

Kind regards, Col.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:30 pm 
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That is a thing a beauty Colin, well done.

I suspect two possible outcomes in attempting to drift the rings when they
arrive, either A: the drift will successfully pierce and all will be fine, or, B
the drift will pierce but because the head provided on the ring for doing so
is so minute, it could basically tear the ring open, compromising it.

If the latter happens, then it is purely a case of increasing the overlap
before flattening the ring, which in turn, creates a longer head with more
room for drifting.

In an ideal world, you want a smaller overlap, because a larger one
means more weight, but doesn't necessarily translate into more
protection for the wearer. The world however, is not an ideal place
and that overlap might simply be an unavoidable necessity.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:58 pm 
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Hi,

Thanks Noel and also thanks for the rings which arrived safely this morning. I now understand better the task ahead of me because seeing the rings greatly highlights just how tiny the punched hole has to be and it sure is tiny. Things are still progressing well though because now the cam/lever is loosely installed and I'm looking at how to fit the return springs. A miracle occurred here today; the rain has stopped and its been a nice warm day; I installed the cam this morning but after dinner had to do some catching up in the garden.

Kind regards, Col.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 5:20 pm 
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Glad they arrived safe and sound, just hope I provided enough samples for you
to test over the coming week or so. I need to invest in a 3 or 4Ib one handed sledge
hammer next week, as my existing tools are not quite giving me the kind of force
needed for the job.

Have a nice weekend Colin

Cheers
Noel.



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 9:34 am 
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Hi,

Thanks for your good wishes Noel.

Yes I'm sure I've got enough samples to experiment with. You'll end up with arms like Popeye swinging the hammer so many times.

I could have easily made this punching machine out of odds and ends I already have to hand but I know few own a lathe so decided to see if I could do this without lathe? So far I think I've succeeded even owning a welder isn't really necessary because the framework could be fabricated using nuts and bolts. This punch could have been made much smaller but I wanted to try to take it a bit further after all easy isn't for for. My thoughts were that if I used 3/4" square BMS for the plunger perhaps I could adapt the machine not only to punch the tiny holes but also to "Set" the rivets without having to add lots of accessories or involving stripping the machine? I know what I'm trying to achieve so am slowly working towards bringing it into reality; owning the kit I have I could have put a simple punch together very quickly but I'm in no hurry and want to see what I can come up with just for the interest of having a go. More work to do but also a lot more thought needs to go into this. :thumbleft:

I'm still in trouble with my skin flare up due to food intolerance; I thought it might be grapes causing the problem so stopped eating grapes and sure enough the problem eased a lot but now its settled on both my arms and its constantly annoying me with lots of itching and burning then when it becomes very bad and I scratch the pain then sets in; hardly a good incentive to do any serious work in the garage and I've just enjoyed a good sneezing session; it's a slow process but I'm stopping eating things one at a time until I find the cause of the trouble; it's not easy and its most unpleasant; in the meantime I just battle on.

Kind regards, Col.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 12:20 pm 
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Hi,

It's not taken too long after all Noel considering the work which has gone into the making and having to design it but the mechanical side of the punch is now fully working; I've just added the two return springs and am very pleased by the plunge action even without oiling; there is well in excess of 1/2" plunger stroke which is way over the top for punching these tiny rings but better too much than too little. I can now concentrate on the tooling; the milling cutters aren't due until next Wednesday but the bulk of the work is now done; adding the bearing to the plunger top has given a nice friction free drive and although it involved a lot of extra work its been worth it. I'll be sorry to let this go because I've enjoyed tinkering around with it. I'll add better pictures later but here are three more to show the working punch.

Kind regards, Col.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:26 pm 
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Fascinating bit of craftsmanship that Colin
I'm growing increasingly excited about the whole thing.
Cant blame ya for not wanting to let it go.

I can set 4 out of 5 rivets on a flat surface like
this, which is great in itself. The problem comes
when you try riveting a ring that is already linked
to many others.
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For instance, how do you rivet the purple ring
and yellow rings? They cannot be placed flat as
are being used to hold all the other rings together.

You could try it of course, but likely to bend and warp
rings in the attempt. This is why it's best to use a hand
tool for that instead.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:21 pm 
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Hi,

Good point Noel and I can see the problem but I'm interested to see how the new lever operated punch works on these tiny rings if in fact it will work at all? I can also see problems trying to use a plier type punch because access to the rivets you mention would still be poor. I need to experiment a bit with punching the holes and a bit more good news the 3mm HSS milling cutters have arrived so I've now got some decent steel to play with. 10 of these milling cutters including delivery for just over a fiver is a genuine bargain; I'm not bothered about how they perform as milling cutters I see them as raw material to make the punch from. It's all trial and error because I've never seen this attempted previously. The picture shows the cutters and they are in what looks like an old fashioned match box but the box has lots of Chinese writing on it. I'm sure though that even this cheap HSS will be a lot tougher than a standard wire nail?

How do you make such tiny rivets Noel especially if you make triangular ones? I've been giving the riveting some thought and am interested because inserting a triangular rivet into a hole on one side of the ring will be a length of rivet slightly in excess of 2mm but the other side the rivet will be just a point; I would have thought trying to make both sides look tidy by "setting" would be very difficult indeed; I know nothing of chain maille so bow to your greater experience on the subject. My own thoughts are that perhaps say a 1.5mm diameter punched parallel hole would be much better because then 1.5mm wire could be used for the rivets; each small rivet cut at a length to give a nicely formed dome at each side? I'm familiar with riveting but on a much larger scale so this is entirely new to me. I intend to try punching both round and rectangular holes to compare and just for the fun of it. :thumbleft:

Kind regards, Col.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:51 pm 
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Lovely job Colin, it is almost a modern sculpture in my eyes :thumbright:

Well done

DWD

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:08 pm 
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Hi,

Thanks DWD; I'm pleased you like it. What I've made is basically a simple mechanical punch that any mechanical engineer wouldn't have trouble making; I've made mine though mostly from the scrap bin and to reach this stage it's only cost about a tenner for the steel I bought. I added the bearing on the plunger end which complicated it but it's nice to see the bearing revolve as the cam bears down on it so it's working as I wanted it to; what the bearing does is to introduce a rolling surface instead of a sliding surface; it should take a lot of use to see any wear in this rolling surface.

All I've done is to bring general engineering to the project; the style of cam is ancient; to make a square hole though in a home workshop to accept the square plunger (piston/ram) would be just about impossible but to assemble bits of metal the way I have done is simplicity itself requiring no special skill or tools. Any size square hole can be made like this. The lever can be made to any length or design; I used round bar stock I have to hand; the cam was cut out of 1/2" thick metal using a common hacksaw and tidied up by hand with files; the 1/2" dia hole was drilled using my big drill press but could equally be drilled by hand but a pilot hole would be beneficial first. Nothing I've done is out of the ordinary in fact so far anyone could do the same. The design as such is mine but then I didn't sit down and draw a design adding dimensions; I simply let the punch develop from what I have kicking around in the garage; it's not at all difficult but I do have lots of experience to draw upon which of course helps.

Using HSS milling cutters for raw material to make the punch tool is my idea; adding the bearing was also my idea but again anyone could do the same if they gave the project some thought thinking each stage through; a little bit of extra effort and time can make a huge difference. I welded the cam brackets for expediency but a point worth noting here; it's easy for a novice to get carried away and weld the brackets to give a nice sliding fit to the cam which would be ideal but then how would the 3/4" square plunger go in or come out without a lot of stripping? It really is very easy to get caught out so care is needed at each stage; I still get caught out and always will. Many years ago I was watching a maintenance engineer securing a brace of very heavy angle iron between a hoist gantry and a shrink wrap oven; nothing wrong at all; he had successfully welded one end at the gantry and was starting to weld the other end to the oven until I stopped him; there were at least another six guys watching but I was the one who stopped him welding; the engineer had placed his ladder in position in order to support the end of the angle iron; unfortunately he had placed the angle iron between rungs? The other guys watching cracked out laughing but why because it was such an honest mistake not one of them spotted it until I spoke up; I don't laugh at such things because I'll be the next one to do similar?

Making this mechanical punch is quite straightforward as can be followed during WIP but what isn't seen is the many hours thought I put in or the research whilst deciding on the style to adopt; these days of the Internet and YouTube there is a vast choice to choose from unlike when I was trained when I read many books and was taught on a one to one with a skilled engineer; there is absolutely nothing better than to stand next to an expert and watch how a job is done whilst asking questions; YouTube tutorials are I think about the next best thing.

I couldn't be bothered making a start in the garage this afternoon because its another dreary black hole and the fog hasn't cleared here at all today; hence I'm in rambling mode but I'll be in the garage early tomorrow morning to press on with this project which is approaching completion. :thumbleft:

Kind regards, Col.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:10 pm 
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Making the rivets Colin basically involves taking a length of 18 gauge wire, beating it
down as thin as you can get it, then cutting the strip into triangles. The angle you cut
at to make the triangles is experimental, and a matter of simply finding the best
one to use with the ring.

I think the reason they started to use wedge riveting in the medieval period for
chainmaile over wire riveting relates to weight. Any amount of weight saving at all would be
beneficial because soldiers were carrying increasingly heavier loads into battle
as semi plate and full plate armor became the norm along with heavier weapons.



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:51 am 
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I did a bit of research on this, just for a bit of trivia.

2.4Kg Pelmbridge Helmet
1.2Kg Chainmaile Coif

When we factor in the added weight of the padded coif and the possibility
of a 14th century knight also wearing a skull cap, then it's within the
realms of possibility that he may have been charging into battle with
as much as 5Kg's on his head.

This would be rather like a modern day British Soldier, fighting with
not 1 or 2, but 5 MK7 Helmets stacked on top of his head. :shock:

Admittedly, some of that weight would be evenly distributed along
the length of a knights shoulders, so it probably would not have
felt just as bad as it sounds but is still quite a burden and goes
some distance to explain the lighter wedge riveting process for
chainmaile making.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:33 am 
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Hi,

Thanks Noel for the informative information; I can see how any excess weight would be detrimental and quickly tire the wearer out. During my motorcycling days I used to ride big bikes usually at over 100mph; I found that riding a bike for sustained periods at over 80mph used to make my neck painful due to wind pressure on my helmet so I always fitted a fairing to my bikes ranging from a dustbin fairing on my 650cc BSA Golden Flash up to proper factory fairing on my BMW R75/5's; the BMW in my avatar was to be fitted with such a fairing. Anyone remember the old dustbin fairings which used to make the front wheel light at over 100mph?

I've been giving the riveting more thought and trying to compare parallel rivets to wedge rivets; obviously both are very different. With the wedge riveting the hole to receive the rivet is pierced with a pointed tool displacing the metal as the tool enters to create the slit so no metal is actually removed; then the rivet is added increasing mass. I wonder as to how strong a wedge rivet is compared to a round parallel rivet? The wedge rivet in this instance has to fit a slit with the widest part 2mm x 0.3mm? This is very thin metal indeed and on one side the rivet will be just over 2mm but on the reverse side only the pointed tip will show giving little to actually set; also such a very thin rivet would be more prone to fold over than form the usual dome associated with riveting?

A round parallel rivet is cut from uniform diameter metal being equal in cross section on diameter. In order to insert this rivet my proposal is to actually punch a hole thereby removing metal not spreading it so some mass is lost. Both ends of the rivet could be formed into proper domes giving equal fastening force on each side of the ring and also being neat domes there would be little risk of any sharpness? I'm only thinking out loud once again but I think a 1.5mm dia parallel rivet might be equally as strong as a 2mm x 0.3mm wedge rivet for similar mass; a round parallel rivet will have equal shear rating around its circumference whilst a wedge rivet shear will vary considerably? Possibly better quality control could be exercised using parallel rivets.

As I say Noel it's just my ideas on this rivet subject which I find quite fascinating; I've only ever used round rivets previously of much larger sizes. I'm a total novice to chain maille making and certainly don't understand the finer details but I have been around mechanical engineering for a long time.

What I'll try to do though Noel is to produce both types of rivet hole then you will have a choice; the punching machine I made can be adapted for both by just a change of tooling? At the moment I've not punched a single hole with the new machine so it's only guess work until tried but I'm hopeful.

Years ago I was faced with "setting" copper/brass rivets into a deep vintage radio chassis where access was impossible by simple means but I overcame this by making two long setting punches from silver steel with con-caved ends and very accurately aligned these in my big drill press; it worked a treat. I bought the rivets from a company in Rochdale which supplies many kinds of rivet. The picture below shows the punches in the drill press and although the solution looks so easy once known it took a lot of thought. The vintage radio is an American Philco 84B Cathedral which Bron kindly imported for me as a Christmas present it being the set in the worst condition on eBay at the time; I used to love these basket cases in fact the rougher the better. The pictures are just for interest but do go to show the lengths I go to whilst working on a project. Such a rivet "setting" set up might be ideal for you Noel it giving more than ample access even on a small drill press?

I'll try to get into the garage for a session today but although I'm retired I don't have endless time to indulge in my hobbies after all they are hobbies and not a job. Rambling on as usual. :thumbleft:

I've just had a quick look and find the company in Rochdale only sell the eyelet type but I do know other companies can supply any size rivet?

http://www.dtpsupplies.com/

I've just been having a quick look on the web and found this;

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00RFXGXM4/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1?pf_rd_p=569136327&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B0053TPTTU&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_r=0E30GGYN02YPGZ8GESFH

Kind regards, Col.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:46 am 
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Both types of riveting have their compromises. The wedge rivet saves mass
on the ring, thereby making the ring stronger, but the rivet itself is likely
nowhere near as good as it could be.

Wire riveting, you lose mass on the ring, but have a stronger rivet. So
I suppose the question a blacksmith of the period had to ask himself
was: which would he prefer to fail first? Ring, or Rivet?

I'm open minded about riveting, as both are historically sound but
I would be very fearful about using a modern, factory made rivet
because they can be really expensive, especially so, when you need
them on a miniature scale along with 50000 or more of them.

It could potentially cost more than the thousand's of meters of wire
that goes into making such a suit.



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Hi,

Thanks Noel. Hopefully you will have a choice of rivet to use? 50,000 rivets needed; I reckon you should have your own rivet making company given this quantity; by the time you make the last rivet you will have had a lot of practice.

I've just squeezed an hour in the garage; I've now drilled the end of the plunger axially to accept both a hole punch and a setting tool; then I cross drilled and tapped for a pair of 5mm grub screws; if I didn't have to eat or sleep I could do so much more; I've knocked off for dinner. It's cold in the garage this morning and I feel perished; I'll have to resort to using the fan heater again shortly; I'm soft because I dislike wet and cold.

Kind regards, Col.

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