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 Post subject: kingspan under floor
PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:12 am 
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In a house which we have done a full refurb on, the lower floor (open plan living room dining room kitchen) was slightly too cold on the -10 nights last week. Obvious place to put an extra radiator is in the kitchen, but it would need to be a designer type (tall and thin)

The floor has that green fibre board and laminate. Under this floor its 3 foot to the soil, so plenty of room to move. Was thinking for about the same cost, I could fit kingspan between the joists. The floor is cold to touch, so could this be the answer??

What do you think about doing this??

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 Post subject: Re: kingspan under floor
PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:27 am 
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With suspended floors the void will always be cold in winter as ventilation will keep the air moving. Naturally the floor will absorb cold from the void and as there is laminate rather than carpet the cold floor will bring the temperature down in the room. Putting Kinngspan in will certainly reduce this cold penetration significantly and as you have room to move in the void it is not too hard to do. You will need to figure out how to retain the insulation in the joists as you cannot rely on a tight fit alone. I would say that you should screw up some roofing battens every few feet or so to keep it in place. Do not push the Kingsppan right up to the floorboards to allow some air to move under between the Kingspan and he floorboards.

DWD



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 Post subject: Re: kingspan under floor
PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:16 am 
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cheers for info DWD.

the joists will be about 150mm deep, so if i fitted 100mm kingspan level with the bottom that would be fine?? Then i could just baton as you say across the bottom of the joists.

Was looking at this stuff on ebay
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... K:MEWAX:IT

Not foil backed, but looks like a bargain.

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 Post subject: Re: kingspan under floor
PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:18 pm 
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handyman wrote:
cheers for info DWD.

the joists will be about 150mm deep, so if i fitted 100mm kingspan level with the bottom that would be fine?? Then i could just baton as you say across the bottom of the joists.

Was looking at this stuff on ebay
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... K:MEWAX:IT

Not foil backed, but looks like a bargain.


Would we all agree ventilation is important to underfloor joist?

Would we also agree the insulation properties of timber is very poor?

Lets say 400mm centres of joist, then 50mm of timber, then 400mm centres of joist, then 50mm...

With such a ample crawl space you could consider a weekend of drilling through the centre of joist a series of holes (12th diameter of 150mm) to improve cross ventilation and then fitting vent grills beneath kitchen units and then fitting vent grills to the kicking boards. Crazy, eh?!

But if thermal insulation is your goal consider the improvement 100mm Kingspan would have fitted beneath your flooring joist and all taped together... No 50mm cold spots nor poor fitting kingspan between the joist.

I've been considering doing such to my kitchen floor which is very similar to your own or stapling a multi-layer foil insulation underneath - the Activ 10 on the underside of the roof rafters works a treat and is meant to have a U-value of 9" of traditional insulation.... Trouble is £200 a roll and none on Ebay for a better price!


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 Post subject: Re: kingspan under floor
PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:18 am 
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ElectricianDirectFY3 wrote:
With such a ample crawl space you could consider a weekend of drilling through the centre of joist a series of holes (12th diameter of 150mm) to improve cross ventilation and then fitting vent grills beneath kitchen units and then fitting vent grills to the kicking boards. Crazy, eh?!

Yes, crazy!

The last thing you want is warm kitchen air getting under the floor. Warm air carries a great deal of water and if it gets into a cold area it will cause condensation. By all means ventilate the underfloor from the outside, but keep the floor sealed to prevent any warm air from getting down there.

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 Post subject: Re: kingspan under floor
PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:51 am 
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Ok, i'm going to make a call & go again'st the general flow here lol.

If you left an unvented air space between the King and underside of floor, nope, not good at all we all agree & building control do not like any unvented spaces in any part of the structure these days.
I advise you pre cut shorter blocks of KS with a slightly "slack" side fit (unless you want to be under there for days) have a load of cheap battens to hand, but push up a block of KS against the under side of your flooring, not leaving an air gap at all, prop them up with a batten/stick, foam gun the "slack" sides & move onto the next bit in a uniform way. Remove sticks after 1/2 an hour.
Could be a difficult job though considering the pipes & cables you may encounter in the dark lol.
Just googled to see if someone else does it the way I do and found this:
http://www.insulation.kingspan.com/uk/pdf/k3.pdf
See Fig 7 but instead of gun foam I think they say nail two support battens along its entire length & leave then in there. So we all have bits correct at least!
Chris.
Or http://www.insulateonline.com/index1.ht ... 2.htm~main (gives two methods of fixing)


Last edited by Chris the builder on Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: kingspan under floor
PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:07 am 
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I would leave the Kingspan level with the bottom of the joists and tape the joints with foil or gaffa tape.

If you try to push it up tight, you'll have cables, pipes and cross braces to get around, may not be too bad if you take the floor up, but doing it from underneath would be a nightmare.


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 Post subject: Re: kingspan under floor
PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:15 am 
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Anyway..... whatever which way, if you want to go by the book (this is from memory, so could be Pete Tong) Part L requires 0.22 so you are looking at a 60mm board.


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 Post subject: Re: kingspan under floor
PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:19 am 
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cheers for all the info. I'll leave it with the customer now.

As above, I was looking at that multi layer foil stuff, it would be much easier to fit under there............until I seen the price of the stuff :shock:
But, this may still be a possibility when weighed up to the cost of the labour fitting kingspan.

I'm presuming the foil would just be stapled to the bottom of the joists?? I'll need to price this option up as well

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 Post subject: Re: kingspan under floor
PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:54 pm 
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handyman wrote:
cheers for all the info. I'll leave it with the customer now.

As above, I was looking at that multi layer foil stuff, it would be much easier to fit under there............until I seen the price of the stuff :shock:
But, this may still be a possibility when weighed up to the cost of the labour fitting kingspan.

I'm presuming the foil would just be stapled to the bottom of the joists?? I'll need to price this option up as well


Many minds are better than one (especially my 1)http://www.ultimatehandyman.co.uk/forum1/posting.php?mode=quote&f=93&p=311479#, so what about lifting the laminate, removing the green stuff, replacing with the underfloor heating thermal boards (which do have a good U-value, but you pay for the priviledge) and relaying all on top or installing underfloor heating?

http://www.theunderfloorheatingstore.co ... 4530240680


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 Post subject: Re: kingspan under floor
PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:42 pm 
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no way, its just been refurbished, new skirting etc. If all that needed done, then you would just for the designer radiator in the kitchen.

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 Post subject: Re: kingspan under floor
PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:29 pm 
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handyman wrote:
no way, its just been refurbished, new skirting etc. If all that needed done, then you would just for the designer radiator in the kitchen.


Cost effective solution - under-plinth electric fan heater on a thermostatic control. Looking at the quality of your work on website I am sure your customer would consider such as an alternative...


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 Post subject: Re: kingspan under floor
PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:52 pm 
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theres leds on the plinths, so the plinth fan is out. Its between an extra radiator or insulate under the floor, just depends on costs.

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 Post subject: Re: kingspan under floor
PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:04 pm 
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Under floor insulation would be cheaper to run. even if it will be a pain to install.

Price wise the rad would be cheaper when you add labour to it.


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 Post subject: Re: kingspan under floor
PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:26 pm 
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this should be the case, but you know what customers are like when they get catalogues and start looking at fancy radiators :lol:

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