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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:03 am 
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My house is built of stone so apparently I can't have cavity wall insulation installed. I don't have any real experience with insulation apart form insulating the loft.

My living room (and other rooms with direct outside walls) seem to be cold because of the cold walls. Is there some kind of thin insulation that can easily be put on the walls as a DIY project, that will make a big difference ? The rooms are not that big so I wouldn't want to loose much space plus there is a high rail that goes around the room. It would also have to be fitted around windows.

The house is Grade II listed so I have wooden front and back doors as that is in keeping with the row of houses. What should be the most effective thing(s) to use to try and make the door area as sealed as possible to stop any drafts ?
I have wooden double glazed windows fitted.

Has anyone done a similar project or have any advice ?

I would like to start getting my house more energy efficient and think this would be a good project.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:48 pm 
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Hi Ahll,
I noticed no-one's answered this one for you, and it's started to slip down the list and out of sight.

I'm afraid there's no 'thin' insulation that will 'make a big difference' - to make a big difference would require a thick layer of insulating material such as Cellotex, a foam board that's easy to fix, but would then need covering again with plasterboard - you end up losing a couple of inches of your room and have the problem of making a good-looking edge round your windows.

One house (an old stone-built mill, grade2 listed) I do odd jobs in occasionally had a 2" thick layer of polystyrene stuck to the inside of the walls and plastered over - it works thermally, the building is now quite easily kept warm, but they can't hang anything on the walls, and even a roughly-handled paintbrush will dent the wall. The difference there was that they did that into the window reveals as well, before the new windows were fitted. it made the new windows smaller, which is a shame in an old building that usually has smaller windows to start with anyway. As you have replacement windows there already, you're probably going to be unable to thicken the walls into the reveals.

The simple fact is that stone walled buildings were built in an era when the principal heating was a 365 days-a-year cooking range or stove, which kept the place aired and dry, and someone was always at home to look after it. We don't live like that any more, and if you want to live in a stone-walled house (especially a listed one!) then you have to accept that without either thick insulation or considerable energy use, you'll never be as comfortable as someone in an insulated cavity-wall house.

I'd resign myself to losing a bit of space - put 25mm battens on the wall, sheets of 25mm Cellotex between them, cover in 12mm plasterboard, and skim it, it'll make you a lot warmer and you'll be able to hang a picture. How you cope with the edges that meet the window reveals would depend on many factors - but a bit of plaster can cover many sins.



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:44 pm 
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Hi ahll
Over last 6 years been doing same thing as you are considering
Have a look at website Insulation Express
They have a wide range of products to choose from and may give you some ideas.
In my case I have used various materials of various thicknesses
depending on how much room I could afford to lose
The one I did use most though was Kingspan K17 which is phenolic insulation bonded to plasterboard which is then dot and dabbed to the wall . Not cheap but then anything green never is .
Anyway won't prattle on and hope it will help
Cheers Richard



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:38 pm 
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Chris Skilbeck wrote:
Hi Ahll,
I noticed no-one's answered this one for you, and it's started to slip down the list and out of sight.

I'm afraid there's no 'thin' insulation that will 'make a big difference' - to make a big difference would require a thick layer of insulating material such as Cellotex, a foam board that's easy to fix, but would then need covering again with plasterboard - you end up losing a couple of inches of your room and have the problem of making a good-looking edge round your windows.

One house (an old stone-built mill, grade2 listed) I do odd jobs in occasionally had a 2" thick layer of polystyrene stuck to the inside of the walls and plastered over - it works thermally, the building is now quite easily kept warm, but they can't hang anything on the walls, and even a roughly-handled paintbrush will dent the wall. The difference there was that they did that into the window reveals as well, before the new windows were fitted. it made the new windows smaller, which is a shame in an old building that usually has smaller windows to start with anyway. As you have replacement windows there already, you're probably going to be unable to thicken the walls into the reveals.

The simple fact is that stone walled buildings were built in an era when the principal heating was a 365 days-a-year cooking range or stove, which kept the place aired and dry, and someone was always at home to look after it. We don't live like that any more, and if you want to live in a stone-walled house (especially a listed one!) then you have to accept that without either thick insulation or considerable energy use, you'll never be as comfortable as someone in an insulated cavity-wall house.

I'd resign myself to losing a bit of space - put 25mm battens on the wall, sheets of 25mm Cellotex between them, cover in 12mm plasterboard, and skim it, it'll make you a lot warmer and you'll be able to hang a picture. How you cope with the edges that meet the window reveals would depend on many factors - but a bit of plaster can cover many sins.


Thanks for the reply I found what you wrote very interesting. Yes at the moment I am unsure about how best to deal with the window reveals - that seems the tricky part to me. Although things would also need to be done to deal with the electrical sockets/switches and the radiators and pipes.

I have now realise that loosing some space in room maybe worth it to keep it warmer. I came across EcoTherm Eco-Liner 100mm (about 4 inches) PIR insulation bonded to 12.5mm tapered edge plasterboard. It also comes in different thicknesses.

I will look up the 25mm Cellotex.

Did you put up a moisture barrier between the insulation and the plaster board you put in top ? What there be any need ?


Yes I wondered about hanging things on 100mm liner etc I just assumed you would have to have longer fixings to hit the wall behind. Or even hanging back up the curtain poles and curtains !


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:40 pm 
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richardHicks61 wrote:
Hi ahll
Over last 6 years been doing same thing as you are considering
Have a look at website Insulation Express
They have a wide range of products to choose from and may give you some ideas.
In my case I have used various materials of various thicknesses
depending on how much room I could afford to lose
The one I did use most though was Kingspan K17 which is phenolic insulation bonded to plasterboard which is then dot and dabbed to the wall . Not cheap but then anything green never is .
Anyway won't prattle on and hope it will help
Cheers Richard


Thanks for your reply I will take a look at the site you recommended. It seems to me there are many ways to do this with many different materials !


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:20 pm 
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I am in the process of doing the same thing using insulated plasterboard. If you are mechanically fixing the insulated plasterboard you use Kingspan K18 which has a foil back. K17 has paper backing to allow for dot and dabbing.

For a stone property I suggest battening out from the wall then fixing the K18 onto this. This will allow the wall to breath.

If you check my thread out it may give you some ideas:
. lodge-renovation-living-room-t69048.html

Cal



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:21 am 
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Quote:
Did you put up a moisture barrier between the insulation and the plaster board you put in top ? What there be any need ?


Cellotex, like many of the products mentioned, has a built-in moisture barrier, in the case of Cellotex it's a thin foil coating each side of the polyurethane foam slab. If you can afford the space-loss, I like the sound of getthewheelsinline's advice.

lots to research and consider, isn't there!



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:02 am 
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Hi,
I have just come across a space saving alternative called superquilt http://www.ecohome-insulation.com/?i=38462. It was feature on grand designed but not managed to find that as yet to watch.

What do people think about this ?

Has anyone got any experience of using this product ?

It has a built in moisture layer as well.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:32 am 
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getthewheelsinline wrote:
I am in the process of doing the same thing using insulated plasterboard. If you are mechanically fixing the insulated plasterboard you use Kingspan K18 which has a foil back. K17 has paper backing to allow for dot and dabbing.

For a stone property I suggest battening out from the wall then fixing the K18 onto this. This will allow the wall to breath.

If you check my thread out it may give you some ideas:
. lodge-renovation-living-room-t69048.html

Cal


Wow that is a major renovation project looks like you are making great progress. What a great idea posting all the photos and progress it was a good thread to look through.

I have a few questions

Was there a particular reason you used 50mm insulation on the external walls opposed to say 100mm ?

Looking at the photos on the insulation it looks like you have left a gap at the bottom. Why was this ?

From the photos I couldn't really see any electrical fitting sockets, light switches. How do you deal with electric cable, sockets, switches in the walls you insulated ? Do you plan to surface mount them or embed them in the wall for a flat finish ?

Did you look into using other insulation methods such as Superquilt ?
:huray:


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:06 pm 
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ahll wrote:
getthewheelsinline wrote:
I am in the process of doing the same thing using insulated plasterboard. If you are mechanically fixing the insulated plasterboard you use Kingspan K18 which has a foil back. K17 has paper backing to allow for dot and dabbing.

For a stone property I suggest battening out from the wall then fixing the K18 onto this. This will allow the wall to breath.

If you check my thread out it may give you some ideas:
. lodge-renovation-living-room-t69048.html

Cal


Wow that is a major renovation project looks like you are making great progress. What a great idea posting all the photos and progress it was a good thread to look through.

I have a few questions

Was there a particular reason you used 50mm insulation on the external walls opposed to say 100mm ?

Looking at the photos on the insulation it looks like you have left a gap at the bottom. Why was this ?

From the photos I couldn't really see any electrical fitting sockets, light switches. How do you deal with electric cable, sockets, switches in the walls you insulated ? Do you plan to surface mount them or embed them in the wall for a flat finish ?

Did you look into using other insulation methods such as Superquilt ?
:huray:


Thanks - I try to keep the thread upto date as I progress. Hopefully if will help someone else with issues that I have had to seek advise with already.

The thickness of insulation is always a compromise with the loss of room space. Building Control will guide you as to the minimum insulation requirement.

Rigid thermoset insulation gives a much greater insulation value than typical glass fibre insulation. If you download data sheets of each you will be able to compare U valves but from memory you only require half the thickness of Rigid compared to glass fibre to achieve the same thermal properties.

The 25mm gap at the bottom of the plasterboard is to stop dampness rising up the board. Also I have 18mm thk Solid OAK flooring to install, which can go in this gap. Skirting will then attach to the wall / floor and the joint sealed with chauk as required.

My battens ensure that I have a 50mm >75mm gap between the wall and foil back of the insulation. This allows my electrical cables to be run in this air gap.
The electrical boxes are just cut into the plasterboard as normal, ensuring you remove the insulation where the wings of the boxes would foul.

From my research Kingspan Rigid Insulation Plasterboard was the best Option. Also, I purchase mine from a company called Seconds&Co (http://www.secondsandco.co.uk/Products.html) who are the sole distributor of Grade B Kingspan products at half the price! The quality of the boards were excellent with just slight misalignment with regards to the position of the insulation board on the board. A sharp knife sorted that easily!

Cal


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:02 am 
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Chris Skilbeck wrote:
Quote:
Did you put up a moisture barrier between the insulation and the plaster board you put in top ? What there be any need ?


Cellotex, like many of the products mentioned, has a built-in moisture barrier, in the case of Cellotex it's a thin foil coating each side of the polyurethane foam slab. If you can afford the space-loss, I like the sound of getthewheelsinline's advice.

lots to research and consider, isn't there!


Yes there sure is a lot of research and consider!

As this is not a new build or total renovation I was really only planning to insulate the internal external walls and not the internal walls(mid terrace so not exposed walls as such) but I have been hearing about thermal bridge. This seems to be where an insulated wall meets an none insulated wall or where there is a break in the insulation. From what I can make out these are areas where problems can occur like condensation which I don't want.

I wondering if this means I will need to also insulate the adjoining walls to the external wall or weather doing just the external one will be ok ?

I have mullion windows that are stone and these are surrounded by wood and have a wooden windowsill. I really need to keep the character so that could mean fitting some insulation over the existing wood then having to get a new wooden frame and windowsill made for every window. I am guessing not a cheap endeavour not sure I could make them myself to look just as the originals.

As things stand at the moment I think what I planned is going to be a lot more expensive than I first thought. One one sit a single sheet of Kingspan K18 was £67 and I will need quite a few. I hope Cals tip of where to get Kingspan grade B will come in a lot cheaper I am awaiting prices.

Oh for those interested it seems SuperQuilt claim a U value of 0.18 which if I am not mistaken is slightly worse than Kingspan at 0.020 W/m.k

Tips

I did read Kingspan guide which recommends that when you puncture the insulation with electric wire or to insert a socket box you 'vapour resistant mastic sealant' around the whole to keep it airtight. I have never heard of this so I am not sure what a good make of product this would be. Does anyone know ?

It also recommends using a 5mm packer on the floor to build the wall up from. Then when packers are removed to seal the gap with 'flexible urethane/acoustic sealant' to keep it airtight. Again I have never heard of this so I am not sure what a good make of product this would be. Does anyone know ?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:24 pm 
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Hi again ahhl
I puzzled over the same things as you and this is what I did , so far I have had no condensation problems or mould even in a walk in wardrobe with clothes tight against an outside wall and internal wall adjoining
I considered walls that connect to an outside wall and decided not to insulate them but if I had any sign of a problem I would then bite the bullet and insulate them ( so far No sign of any problems 5 years on)
Around sockets I just used a flexible frame sealant and so far yet again no problem
Lastly I packed my plasterboard up from the floor by a minimum of 10mm and when removed used expanding foam which is not only a good insulation but its also waterproof
As to your reveals I used Marmox board again from insulation express because they are waterproof and they can be plastered straight onto so maximising the insulation
I hope this may help a bit even though it might not be strictly correct.
Good luck
Richard



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:38 pm 
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You need a vapour barrier on the warm side of the insulation(before plasterboard),this prevents condensation and is standard practise in timber frame construction. The visqueen vapour barrier is overlapped by 100mm at joins and taped.



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:53 pm 
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richardHicks61 wrote:
Hi again ahhl
I puzzled over the same things as you and this is what I did , so far I have had no condensation problems or mould even in a walk in wardrobe with clothes tight against an outside wall and internal wall adjoining
I considered walls that connect to an outside wall and decided not to insulate them but if I had any sign of a problem I would then bite the bullet and insulate them ( so far No sign of any problems 5 years on)
Around sockets I just used a flexible frame sealant and so far yet again no problem
Lastly I packed my plasterboard up from the floor by a minimum of 10mm and when removed used expanding foam which is not only a good insulation but its also waterproof
As to your reveals I used Marmox board again from insulation express because they are waterproof and they can be plastered straight onto so maximising the insulation
I hope this may help a bit even though it might not be strictly correct.
Good luck
Richard

Thanks for your input I am glad to hear you have had no problems when you just insulated the internal external walls.

Can I ask what construction method did you used ? What type & depth of insulation did you use ? Have you noticed a big difference since adding the insulation ?

How did you fix your skirting boards back on ?

Yes 5mm does seem low and I am not sure about it as yet...it just what the manufacturer quoted.
Was the expandable foam also fire resestent ? From what I undersand about Kingspan it has a Zero rating for fire which I think is a good thing. I wouldn't want to add something highly combusterble to the building structure.

I wanted to post a picture of my windows and reveals yesterday but so far not worked out how to do it.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:37 pm 
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Hi ahhl
I used kingspan K17 60mm +12.5 plasterboard dot and dabbed with 4 mechanical fixings per sheet
on all exterior walls upstairs except for the bathroom where due to space restrictions I used only 25 +12.5mm sheets. down the stairs I ended up using 30mm Marmox Board as 30mm was the maximum amount I could lose . Downstairs I changed to Celotex 4000pl which is almost as good as Kingspan but a bit cheaper. and used 40 +12.5mm but this time mechanically fixed only because I wanted the maximum amount of Insulation I had space for. (Mechanical fixings made of Glass see Insulation Express)
To be honest I Had to balance cost and space against thickness just about everywhere and just did the best I could. My thoughts being whatever I do has got to be better than what it was.
Have I noticed an improvement? . Without a doubt In my opinion it was well worth the cost and effort.
As to the foam Yes Fire rated foam would be what to use and as to fixing the skirting I used Riva plasterboard fixings which I think are brilliant Have a look at them at Screwfix.com..
Hope this has helped
Richard



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