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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:41 pm 
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Hi guys.

For various reasons over the years (eg putting in new worktops in kitchen) I've needed to shut off the water supply in my flat.

I've always been puzzled by the various stop-cocks (probably wrong term) inside the flat and wondered how to just turn it off at source. Like rising-main at kitchen sink in a house.

To add to the confusion my bathroom was extended into a cupboard and the cold tap on basin keeps running when the cold tap on bath and kitchen sink run dry.

When taking pictures for this thread yesterday I actually discovered the basin is isolated if you turn the stop-cock for the cistern! I

I've also found that when you turn the stop-cocks they often drip for a while afterwards so not keen on using them. The one in the kitchen dripped for months after doing the worktops. Had to have a bowl under it till it dried up.

In the boiler cupboard there are several rows of pipes running vertically which must feed all the other flats. There are two 'taps' in here:

  • red-handled gate-valve(?) which isolates all the hot taps so that's fine
  • heavy-duty thing which looks like it's not to be tampered with which I suspect might be for the cold supply


What might this be for? I'm reluctant to turn it as it's quite stiff and might cause havoc in the other properties

Image
general view, above shelf, of water pipes in boiler cupboard. 7 pipes for 4 flats on my side of building. I'm 2nd top

Image
Image
and view directly below shelf. less pipes here as one disappears over to top of boiler, at shelf level


Image
shutting this gate-valve(?) isolates all the hot taps in flat


Image
this pipe with branch is the one connected to top of immerser tank


Image
is this perhaps shut-off for cold supply?


Image
reason I think it might not be is that it connects to immerser tank but same fitting leads to gate-valve for hot taps

:dunno:


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:32 pm 
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foy9999 wrote:
What might this be for? I'm reluctant to turn it as it's quite stiff and might cause havoc in the other properties


It might be for your flat it might be for another flat, short of following the pipes or turning it off you will never know.

Its like saying I have a switch in this cupboard, here is a picture of it, what does it do?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:35 pm 
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Is it really? Would it not be more like saying I have a switch in this cupboard and here are the wires leading to and from it. What do you think it might be for?

Here's a suggestion someone-else. If you don't know, don't answer. How about that?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:36 pm 
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This post is not intended to be anything other than constructive. Please do not take it any other way. :hello2:

I base my previous post on the following question.

How do you expect any one to know what a valve (in your case) that is on a pipe that its origin and destination are unknown is for?
All they can do is guess, and how will you know if the guess is correct? you will have to turn the valve (or similar thing in question) off. Which is what you could do while you are waiting for the next guess.

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No such thing as "Thou shalt put this wire here, Thou shalt put that wire there" .............Take a picture BEFORE you do the job.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:17 am 
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Hard to say for me from the pictures, but if I understand you correctly, the red gate valve is on the 22mm, well probably 3/4" in your case as everything looks quite old, that goes to the feed at the bottom of your cylinder?

If so, I would suspect that other type of valve is shutting off the cold feed to another cold tap or taps somewhere.

Do any cold taps go off when the hot taps are turned off?

The pipe coming out of the top is feeding all the hot taps, so the high up tee is feeding a hot outlet somewhere, or was a some point.

Can you say for certain which is the cold mains pipe that runs to all the flats? If you can categorically tell which pipe it is, then importantly, which way the water flows (I got caught out by this many years ago) then you could freeze the pipe and fit a new stop cock, or a full bore gate valve, to it. Bear in mind that if it is indeed the old 3/4" sized pipe, you will need 3/4" olives instead on the 22mm ones that come with today's fittings.

Have you a header tank somewhere that is supplying the water feed to the hot water cylinder?

What is used to heat the hot water?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:24 pm 
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someone-else wrote:
This post is not intended to be anything other than constructive. Please do not take it any other way. :hello2:

I base my previous post on the following question.

How do you expect any one to know what a valve (in your case) that is on a pipe that its origin and destination are unknown is for?
All they can do is guess, and how will you know if the guess is correct? you will have to turn the valve (or similar thing in question) off. Which is what you could do while you are waiting for the next guess.


Jesus. I should know better than to rise to this. Better to ignore certain people but here goes.

A. You: I doubt you are a plumber or have had any experience installing water-supply system into muliple-occupancy building (flats for example) so it's unlikey you will know. There are however other people who are experienced in these matters and may therefore be able to shed some light on the issue. Your signature says to me you are a 'comedian' or attention seeker and possibly to boost your ego you need to comment on posts that you don't have anything factual to add to

B. the subject: with most trades there are common practices and conventions and a finite level of components available therefore someone experienced in the field (plumber perhaps) can recognise what may be a component used in cold supply as opposed to hot. They may also be able to work out from the routing of the pipes and connection to the hot water tanks what is hot and cold. They may also be conversant with building regulations of the period which for example could provide that all mains supply water valves must be independently accessible within each property or perhaps there must be at least one shut of valve per every 8 properties in a block. That kind of thing. Something that I don't know about and I bet you don't either

c. anecdote: years ago I posted on here a thread about 'what kind of wood is this?'. I got a mixture of responses. Mostly guesses but iirc no smart answers like 'you'd be as well asking what kind of grass this is'. So years later I was telling a chap about it and straight of the bat he said 'it'll be piranha' and told me that's what they used in the 70s in all buildings in the area as it had no knots. I went home and Googled on it and found there is a wood called Parana Pine. A year or two later I found a timber yard selling large planks of it and I have bought some of it. It's been a long journey but I got there in the end and it wasn't thanks to know-it-alls and attention seekers. It was thanks to someone who worked in the trade and knew the answer. Mush like gas4you in the post above

:hello2:



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:52 pm 
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foy9999 wrote:
A. You: I doubt you are a plumber


I never said I am a plumber. Several times on this forum I have replied with the opening statement of "I am NOT a plumber or Heating engineer"

_______________________________________________________________________________________

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, as my signature says "above are mine"

But I would also like to point out what else has been said.............

gas4you wrote:
Hard to say for me from the pictures


Which is my whole point. Unless the site is visited and the pipes (in this case) are followed there is no way any one can know what pipe / stopcock / valve does (unless it is turned off by the person who is on site. (Which is what I also suggested)

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Take it easy, a forum is only a collection of opinions. Above, are mine.

Which is correct? Metre or Meter? Click the link. to find out more.

No such thing as "Thou shalt put this wire here, Thou shalt put that wire there" .............Take a picture BEFORE you do the job.

If gloom had a voice, it would be me. :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:49 pm 
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Have to agree with the above post/s only way to find out what isolates what is to turn off the valves. note even then if there is stored water then the shutting off of the rising main won't necessarily show what feeds what straight away.

Normally the kitchen cold tap will be fed direct from the main, depending on the heating system (I.e combi boiler) then the hot water may also be direct for mains water...

Some-one on site would possibly be able to diagnose fairly quickly.... buuuutt if it's a conversion to flats it may need all occupants to be in and could take a lot longer...

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:41 am 
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gas4you wrote:
the red gate valve is on the 22mm, well probably 3/4" in your case as everything looks quite old, that goes to the feed at the bottom of your cylinder?

If so, I would suspect that other type of valve is shutting off the cold feed to another cold tap or taps somewhere.

Yes that pipe is approx 22mm OD and goes down to T-piece which joins to copper water tank and also has pipe with approx 16mm (OD) coming into it

Do any cold taps go off when the hot taps are turned off?

I could check again but am sure only the hot taps went off when the red gate valve was shut and I had all the taps open

The pipe coming out of the top is feeding all the hot taps, so the high up tee is feeding a hot outlet somewhere, or was a some point.

Can you say for certain which is the cold mains pipe that runs to all the flats?

I've no idea where the rising main is, despite having the original drawings for the flats. they just show doors and light switches etc

Have you a header tank somewhere that is supplying the water feed to the hot water cylinder?

Good question. I've never been in the loft to the flats so don't know what's up there

What is used to heat the hot water?

It's just an immersion heater/element. no separate boiler

Image
Santon immersion heater. circa 1950



Hi gas4you. Sorry for late response but I've tried to answer your points...


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:52 am 
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Well. I've fixed the issue that I wanted to turn the water off for in the 1st place (calcified cold tap bathroom basin) but still curious and have done a little reading.

Seems my set up is a direct feed hot water tank and they are supplied at the bottom with cold water and the hot is pushed out the top and there is also a pipe leading away back to the tank (in loft) in case the water overheats. That explains why the tank coming out of the top of copper tank goes two way further up.

The only confusion with my tank is that it has two pipes going into the bottom. One from the 22mm OD (Imperial nominal size 5/8") pipe with red gate valve and 1 from the 16mm OD (Imperial nominal size 1/2").

So it seems to me the supply to the cold taps is not connected to any of the pipes I can see here. They're all for the not water. Well out of the 7 running through the cupboard only 3 connect in any way to my home.

One final thing is that there is supposed to be (by law?) a drain cock near the bottom of the tank but nothing there that I can see


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:23 am 
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I personally have never worked on a set up as you now describe, but, I still cannot see how this is a mains pressured set up, especially as the red gate valve turns off all the hot taps.

This points to a tank somewhere feeding it.

Sadly without being there to investigate, I feel I cannot add any further constructive or safe advice.

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