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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:19 pm 
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Our builder has put some plumbing into a new extension and has run the hot and cold pipes next to each other.
I am concerned about Legionella (as well as energy conservation) as in places they are about 1mm apart, for a couple of feet.
They have done this as they created only one hole through the wall to feed the pipes through and so it is tight. Before, they were actually touching. I am concerned that the water in the cold feed may increase to 20 degrees C when Legionella bacteria can then flourish, and it will not get killed off as water will not get to 50degrees in the cold pipe.
Is there any statutory minimum that hot and cold pipes to a shower should be apart?
Should they be lagged to decrease energy transfer?
Sorry, but I cannot post a picture as it is saying they are too big.

Thank you


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:31 pm 
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just wondering...........

Legionella is a bug, how will it get into your cold water pipe in the first place?

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:38 pm 
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Legionella comes into the pipe in the water. As it is a bacterium, it can then multiply rapidly in the right conditions, that is in water between 20 degrees and 45 degrees. It then can end up being in the tiny droplets of mist that comes out of your shower, and can then be breathed in, leading to pneumonia, especially of you are elderly, ill, or have a lung condition.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:06 pm 
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I always thought they had to ge 150mm apart but I can’t find anything to back this up!

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:10 pm 
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Thanks Dave
When you put pipes in, is that what you do?
Do you lag them?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:30 pm 
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gas4you wrote:
I always thought they had to ge 150mm apart but I can’t find anything to back this up!


There must be about 20 million installations that aren't, and pipe clips that slot together (like Talon) to make really neat installations provide for a spacing of about 15mm.

150mm apart is for shower valves?

Anyway, is it really that serious? Legionaire outbreaks occur where the water is stagnant (or less likely to flow frequently) coupled with ambient conditions. OP may be worrying unneccessarily? Anybody else worry about it apart from hospitals paying through the nose for risk assessments? Perhaps OP is a nurse!



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:46 am 
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Not that I agree with the legionnaire scare tactics there is a regulation about it.

In fact there are loads of regs about it.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:55 am 
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http://www.hse.gov.uk/legionnaires/hot-and-cold.htm

http://www.hse.gov.uk/legionnaires/thin ... nsider.htm

Can't really find any useful info other than what I said before appears to be a load of b*llocks.

All I can find in the second link is that pipe work should be insulated to prevent heat transfer to another pipe.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:36 am 
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"the relevant positions of cold water pipes to hot water pipes should be such that cold water pipes are not warmed" is about as much as WRAS says about the matter. In practical terms this means running the DHW above the cold for horizontal runs (because heat rises), and certainly pipes not touching, or close to touching.

I've never seen anything that says there should be 150mm separation between hot and cold, and I regularly use double pipe clips for them (with hot above cold, horizontally) myself, as you'd use for CH flow and return -- that is far less than 150mm separation, more like about 35-40mm between pipe centres. I'm always willing to be better educated though... if that's considered a bad idea or contravenes a current regulation, then I'll deffo stop doing it, pronto.

If the pipes are touching, or are very near to touching (1 or 2mm) then the very best you could say is it's a bit amateurish.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:53 pm 
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Thanks
I agree ref haste and quality. The pipes were originally touching, but we have now got them them to separate them enough for us to get insulation around them to reduce heat transfer, but unfortunately any regs are not specific enough. They did not put hot above cold for the en-suite including the shower but directly next to each other, and touching, so yes, it is amateurish at best, and that is from a recommended builder with over 30 years experience.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:11 pm 
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Sparkly5 wrote:
Legionella comes into the pipe in the water. As it is a bacterium, it can then multiply rapidly in the right conditions, that is in water between 20 degrees and 45 degrees.



I think you are worrying unduly. Given the current heat, our CW pipes from the storage in the loft must be over 20 degrees C anyway.

No amount of legislation will overcome that.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:48 pm 
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Sparkly5 wrote:
we have now got them them to separate them enough for us to get insulation around them to reduce heat transfer, but unfortunately any regs are not specific enough. They did not put hot above cold for the en-suite including the shower but directly next to each other, and touching, so yes, it is amateurish at best, and that is from a recommended builder with over 30 years experience.

Hot and cold alongside each other is fine -- it's just having the hot below the cold that is not great. As wine~o says, I wouldn't sweat it too much, especially if you've now got enough space for pipe insulation. The number of shonky plastic-piped bathrooms and kitchens you see with unclipped pipes touching each other under baths, cabinets and floorboards is unbelievable. The same rules about pipes not heating each other apply, but seem to be often overlooked. I wouldn't want it my house, and wouldn't do it in anyone else's, but there must be millions of houses in the UK with pipework like that. :sad:

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