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horsefeathers
Junior Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 10
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 Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:49 pm Post subject: hi all' few questions? |
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hi, im a bench joiner from yorkshire and been having a few problems with doors ive been making.
The stiles of the doors seem to be trying to move off the tennons when fitted and exposed to external weather conditions.
They are normally ex 2" sapele doors that to my knowledge have been constructed correctly with normal m and t joints, haunched correctly with good room for wedges on the outside of the tennons well pva glued hammered in. 
I think it may be due to moisture changes after being in a warm workshop for a couple of weeks to going outside???
Any ideas or techniques for avoiding problems in future????  |
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dirtydeeds
Craftsman Carpenter
Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 256
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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| what style of doors are they. FLB? |
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horsefeathers
Junior Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| style is very basic, solid rebated and beaded, top mid and bot rail, like 2xg, some with t&g boards infill, not really framed ledged and braced |
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Mr Mike
Junior Member
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Posts: 44
Location: Greenwich, London
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:47 am Post subject: |
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Any chance of some photos of the problem horsefeathers ?
The problem has to be caused by expansion (as opposed to the stiles shrinking away from the rails which can happen to internal doors).....
When you say the stiles of the doors seem to be 'moving off the tenons', with all due respect, it sounds more like a case of incorrect wedging to me. When you say 'good room for the wedges', you only need between 6 to 8mm (10mm max) at the outside of the stile tapering to nothing within a few mm of the inside of the stile. You must taper the sides of your mortice for this, something which people often forget to do, in the hope that pure brute force will hammer the wedges home tightly.
I hope I'm not teaching my Grandma to suck eggs, but in the construction of the door, it's important to get a tight fitting mortice and tenon joint first, and then taper the sides of the mortice for your wedges. The actual glue necessary to make a tight durable joint is minimal.
If you want to be double sure of your stiles not 'moving off the tenons', then drawbore and peg the tenons, as well as wedge next time....
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dirtydeeds
Craftsman Carpenter
Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 256
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| did you wedge up the T&G for a tight fit |
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horsefeathers
Junior Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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You obviously talk a lot of sense mr mike about the tennons and mortising, i was sure they were well drove in tight, around 5mm maybe gap on the outside of the stile.
I just leave the mortises square as its quite a task to angle them quickly and easily for the wedges, But ive made hundreds this way and ive not had trouble before??
Draw boring is a great technique but its speed that we need most times in manufacturing, not good i know but its a reality!
A tight mortise and tennon joint often can cause twisting. i nice push in fit is perfect i find.
yes, dirty deeds, do you think the boards may have pushed on the stiles??
(silly question??) |
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Mr Mike
Junior Member
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Posts: 44
Location: Greenwich, London
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:53 am Post subject: |
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Surely, It must be expansion in the tongue and groove that's pushing the stiles off the rails then ?
Is the tongue and groove from the same stock as the rails/stiles ?
Again, the tongue and groove should definitely not be glued together, or, any glue in the rebate....it needs to be a free to move panel, but I'm sure you know this.
One important thing though with tongue and groove on external doors is to treat all faces of all the boards before assembling the door....e.g. prime all the tongue and groove boards if the door's to be painted.....or oil/varnish all the t&g if it's to be a clear finish.
This will help avoid unwanted expansion caused by moisture ingress.
But, if the M&T joints are spot on, then I would expect the whole door to twist, or the t&g boards to split / buckle before the joints gave out.
Have tried an autopsy on the door yet ? It should be pretty visible if it's the T&G that's expanded bigger than the rebate it sits in...... |
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horsefeathers
Junior Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:15 pm Post subject: hands tied! |
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I havn't been able to get the door back for examination as one of the carpenters was sent to try and re-cramp and screw and pellet up the joints.
Wasn't able to treat the boards either (boss's decision)! the client was doing the staining.
I know many ways to make the manufacturing better and more comprehensive but its quite a rush to get jobs done and out at my place.
company motto "if a jobs worth doing, its worth doing twice"
It does'nt help when you're managing director has a limited knowledge and is mildly ignorrant!
In conclusion it was probably the t&g boards that caused the problem.
Was fun chatting, look forward to quizzing again. |
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dirtydeeds
Craftsman Carpenter
Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 256
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| horse feathers, yes ive seen tightly wedged t&g push doors out of shape |
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