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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:00 pm 
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Is someone able to explain this lighting circuit as i am baffled. So the bottom cable is the light fitting the top two i have no idea what they are.

i have been trying to find two ceiling roses and have not been successful


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:19 pm 
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It is more of a generic connection box than an actual light fitting, with an extra connector poked in. Which isn't ideal because there is no cable restraint for the lighting flex.

From what I can see in the picture, neither of the red wires is connected to anything at this end, they're just made safe. So 'If' the light doesn't work then it may be a standard configuration, but for some reason the two live/red wires have been isolated from each other, to prevent it working (e.g. to make the switch or light safe, if something was damaged or removed or substandard).

But 'if' the light works then one cable is supplying neutral and the other supplying switched live (along a black wire), but rather unusually the live is being obtained (by the switch) from some other place.

That is my best guess anyway, but further investigation may be needed.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:49 pm 
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oh the joys of moving into a old house and finding these things out.... here is the light switch, the light is controlled by the far left (in the image).

If i could find the ceiling rose i could clean all this up.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:56 pm 
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I'd assumed by the bottom cable being the light fitting, you meant that the connection box was serving as the ceiling rose. If not, then I may reassess my last post.

It does look like the switch is getting live from another source. But can you clarify a few things: if the light works or not, why you can't find the ceiling rose (as this is normally what the light is suspended from), and if that junction box isn't acting as the rose, what/where is the box?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:21 pm 
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The light is working correctly, my understanding was that in certain areas there would be a ceiling rose that takes a feed of another rose. This then has a switch / light fittings on it.

I was looking for a ceiling rose for a light in the porch and all i found was this junction box. I assumed that the wires were made safe at some point but unsure what they were in the past.

i attached a multimeter to two ends of one of the wires, and stuck a single button switch to the ones that were linked in the far left button. Switched it on and off to see if i was on the right cable. I tested both cables going into the junction box and got 0 results.

On the 3 button switch i am unable to find any of the ceiling roses however have found all the others in the house.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:05 pm 
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Sadly, I can't quite understand the details of what you want to do or have tested. Hopefully someone with different eyes can.

That aside, in your first picture it looks like one black wire is neutral, and the other is a switched live - i.e. only becomes live when the switch is turned on. So far, fairly normal. But, the other side of the switch is taking its permanent live from its neighbour, rather than drawing it from the connection box as you expected.

So, neither of the red wires in the box are actually being used, and it is uncertain if they are even connected to anything at their other end (though for safety don't assume that they aren't) - i.e. there may be no permanent live in that particular box. There are various ways one could test for the presence of live (when the switch is turned off), the safest may be a non-contact voltage detector.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:52 pm 
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As Kev888 has said, what you have is a 4 way junction box with 3 cables, one to the light fitting and the other two are Live in and neutral in. (But both using black)

The "Thing is" it is up to who ever wired how they chose to do it and what colours they have used, there are no hard and fast rules regarding how to wire lights.
If it helps the live is looped at the switch where as its often looped at the light, I suspect it is this reason you do not understand it.

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Take it easy, a forum is only a collection of opinions. Above, are mine.

Which is correct? Metre or Meter? Click the link. to find out more.

No such thing as "Thou shalt put this wire here, Thou shalt put that wire there" .............Take a picture BEFORE you do the job.

If gloom had a voice, it would be me. :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:16 pm 
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someone-else wrote:
As Kev888 has said, what you have is a 4 way junction box with 3 cables, one to the light fitting and the other two are Live in and neutral in. (But both using black)

The "Thing is" it is up to who ever wired how they chose to do it and what colours they have used, there are no hard and fast rules regarding how to wire lights.
If it helps the live is looped at the switch where as its often looped at the light, I suspect it is this reason you do not understand it.


All I can suggest is that something has been removed - looking at the knockouts on the jb the left knockout is empty.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:21 pm 
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or a 2nd hand jb :lol:

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Which is correct? Metre or Meter? Click the link. to find out more.

No such thing as "Thou shalt put this wire here, Thou shalt put that wire there" .............Take a picture BEFORE you do the job.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:30 pm 
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someone-else wrote:
or a 2nd hand jb :lol:


Indeed, maybe 3rd hand.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:57 pm 
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2 cables at the top will be power and the other a switch live - as you just moved into this property - the previous owners may of taken the light fitting with them and made it 'safe'

does the light work currently ??? operated by the switch on the left

I worked it out................

Power -------- switch ---------------- JB (back) -------Bulb------- neutral (black)(borrowed from the lighting ring/spur at the JB)

Look at the 2 blacks in the JB and the way the live is jumped across the switch


Edit. remove the link between the middle an left switch then you will have a the correct switch live and power at the JB/ light fitting


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:42 pm 
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Bob225 wrote:
2 cables at the top will be power and the other a switch live - as you just moved into this property - the previous owners may of taken the light fitting with them and made it 'safe'

does the light work currently ??? operated by the switch on the left

I worked it out................

Power -------- switch ---------------- JB (back) -------Bulb------- neutral (black)(borrowed from the lighting ring/spur at the JB)

Look at the 2 blacks in the JB and the way the live is jumped across the switch


Edit. remove the link between the middle an left switch then you will have a the correct switch live and power at the JB/ light fitting



Are you sure about that ? Coz I'm not.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:55 pm 
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If in doubt power off - check it with a meter

looking at the JB the 2 reds are terminated the 2 blacks are connected to the bulb 1 black from each T&E - The switch has a bounced common (live) - according to the op above its the left hand switch


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:59 pm 
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Bob225 wrote:
If in doubt power off - check it with a meter



Agreed.

Although I think removing the jumper would cause other lights to stop working..

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:08 pm 
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The middle switch is just a one way so the common can go in either Com or L1 - in this case L1 is Com ?

The Right hand switch looks to be a 2 way (stairs and landing)

The Middle one is the hall

The Left hand being the porch (JB pictured)


There could just of been a issue with the switch live T&E for the porch (broken red somewhere)



Anyhoo back to fault finding this SMPS


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