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Mad Chemist
Member
Joined: 22 Jan 2007
Posts: 56
Location: York
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 Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:33 pm Post subject: Garage repairs - is this building or joinery??? |
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Hi all,
I've got some problems with my garage, some caused by subsidence caused by trees dehydrating the clay soil, and some caused by very poor building in the first place!
I've had the trees removed, so the subsidence problem's cured 
And after spending all last weekend perched on a roof ladder, (not the most comfortable place to perch i assure you!!) I've got the ivy cleared!
Sorry don't have any pictures yet of the ivy removed.
But the structural engineers report says that due to poor building and the weight of the roof covering (concrete tile - the original roof covering I hasten to add), the roof needs some work to stabalise the building.
he says "the roof spread problem can be rectified by tying the feet of the rafters and thus triangulating the roof. As no adequate celing joists exist cross members should be installed to tie the feet of every rafter"
I take this to mean run a length of woof across the garage from the bottom of the rafter on one side to the bottom of the rafter on the other. If i do this, A) what size wood would you suggest? i was thinking1 x 3, or 2 x 4.
And b) which way of attatching the wood is better (i appologise for the crudity of the diagrams
nail up in direction of arrow, then put nail plates either side and nail into them as well, or
overlap the two, drill through and bolt (or i suppose drive a big nail through).
I will have more questions, as there are other things such as tying the roof to the walls, that i'm not sure about, but this seems to be the best place to start.
Thanyou in advance for taking the time to read my (long) post.
MC |
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wood4fun
Senior Member
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 314
Location: home of the 5 times european champions
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| 4/2 bracing and bolt them into the rafters. would be the best way to go. |
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ultimatehandyman
Site Admin
Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 9740
Location: Darwen, Lancashire
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with wood4fun, bolting 4*2 is the way to go!
My friend had to do this with his garage, I TOLD him when he was buliding it that the walls would spread the walls out, did he listen 
He then hed to put the cross members in, which stopped it getting any worse!
I'd use these as well - http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?cId=101228&ts=10886&id=99094
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wood4fun
Senior Member
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 314
Location: home of the 5 times european champions
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| great chez you found them i was looking for them to post it |
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Mad Chemist
Member
Joined: 22 Jan 2007
Posts: 56
Location: York
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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Hi,
Thank you all for such quick replies. I'll get some ordered, if the timber connectors are M12, does that mean i use 12mm bolts? also would I be best using some large washers on the outside of the timbers (between bolt head and timber) to spread the force a bit?
Also is is worth a dab of wood glue between them before i bolt?
And does anyone have any recomendations on wood suppliers? we have all the big builders merchants around here, any better than others or should i just phone round and see who's cheepest?
As UH says the walls have spread a bit, and this is all to rectify this, but I hardly think the garage needs tearing down (as this is what the surveyor who did the pre purchase survey said) I've no idea how much rebuilding a 6.5m x 4.5m garage from blockwork would cost but i'm sure it's more than the cost of a few bolts and some timber, and a job lot of repointing - just thought i'd add this in as a cautionary note that sometimes it's worth a second opinion even on a survey from a proper surveyor.
When i get stuck i'll probably be back asking for more help, but i'll also post some before and after pictures, so hopefully they may help someone in this situation in the future.
Thanks again for the help
MC |
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wood4fun
Senior Member
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 314
Location: home of the 5 times european champions
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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M12 12mm bolt no glue needed but use washer
as for the timber use phone around |
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tim'll fix it
BANNED
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 2137
Location: Leicestershire
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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surveyors reports should be read with a pinch of salt, they are doom and gloom merchants and out to cover their own backs
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ultimatehandyman
Site Admin
Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 9740
Location: Darwen, Lancashire
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:11 am Post subject: |
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Some surveyors go way over the top with their surveys.
I once had one done by a surveyor that used to work on Nuclear power stations, he did a survey on a house that I was interested in and basically he said it was falling down and needed lots of remedial work.
A few months later the surveyor was pulled by the local council as they were not happy about his surveying as he put most people of buying!
Your garage is quite big, are there any pillars along the two long walls?
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Mad Chemist
Member
Joined: 22 Jan 2007
Posts: 56
Location: York
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:34 am Post subject: |
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OK
I'll go into a bit more detail about the problems with the garage.
First there's the wiring i've already highlighted in the rouges gallery!! I'm going to get this fixed once the roof has been sorted so I don't damage the new wiring or light fittings while i'm strengthening the roof.
Second was the subsideance, i've had the trees removed, and though a section of the wall needs replacing, the structural report stated that the clay soil will re absorb water and so I was waiting till this had occured before repairing the wall as otherwise when the ground swells with water I assumed it could push the roof upwards, also, because the roof has been shown to need strengthening, and i'll need to support it on props while i fix the wall, I assumed sorting the roof would be a good place to start, as supporting a strengthened roof seems more sensible than supporting a weak roof.
Third is the roof, this has splayed a bit as I said above, and needs tying across the bottoms of the rafters to triangulate the roof, i'm going to use bolts as recomended above, with washers and timber connectors, and i'll use 2 x 4 wood.
Would this slight change below be acceptable? as this will allow the lights to be attatched to the bottoms of the new cross ties without me hitting my head on them?
Once strenthened the roof also needs tying to the walls at 1.5m centers.
Fourth is the back gable wall, this has had a window fitted, but no concrete lintel (just a bit of wood), the weight of the blocks and ivy above has caused the wood to bend, and the wall has step cracks going up and out from the window. The structural engineers report explains this well, and explains what size of lintel is required, but as I don't really want windows in the garage (security risk etc...) I was going to remove the window and block it up, would this be sensible?? I'd support wall using 2 or 3 acro probs and strongboys, remove window, block ut up, then repoint the cracked sections of mortar.
Fifth and finally, there are windows on the side of the garage either side of the door from the garden.
Sorry for the poor picture, it was the only one I had at work on my PC (was taken from the conservatory / lean to), anyway i've marked in red on the picture where the walls are at full height, between the red lines the only support for the roof is the window and door frames, again i'd like to brick up these windows to strengthen the building, on the wall opposite the door there is one piller, would it be sensible to add pillers to either side of the door when I block up the windows?
Sorry for such a long post, but i think it explains everything as well as I can, any questions please ask.
Thans again for everyone who takes the time to read and advise
MC |
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Slugster
Senior Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 965
Location: Cotswolds
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:38 am Post subject: |
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MC,
Make sure you get Coachbolts.
These have bigger head and a square bit behind the head. When you whack them into place the square bites into the wood and grips meaning all your attention is on the other side where the nut is. And you only need one nut - that's the one holding the spanner
2nd the post about the washers or the nut will dig into the wood too much.
Take a bit of time working out where to drill so the hole is central to both bits of wood. When working with angles, it's easy to go too close to the edge and weaken things.
And finally don't over tighten. It's easy to go honeynut loopy with the spanner and split something.
As for raising the cross brace - I can't see there being a problem. As long as it's tied together, it'll do.
Sorry can't comment about the lintel. |
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ultimatehandyman
Site Admin
Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 9740
Location: Darwen, Lancashire
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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That picture is ok as I can see what blocks the garage is made from now, they look like the solid blocks that are only about 4 inch thick! I don't like these, especially for load bearing and I prefer breeze blocks, although they are much dearer to buy they are far more ridgid as they are twice as thick.
That garage is really bad design, having the doors and windows like that and no lintles, it's amazing that it is still standing!
Removing the windows and blocking it up seems like a good idea to me, but The windows and door do not look central and so it's not really the right place to put pillars. With a garage that length I would of incorporated a couple of pillars to strenghten it, perhaps one on each side half way down each long wall.
Your diagrams are excellent by the way and it has made it easy to see exactly what the problem is
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Mad Chemist
Member
Joined: 22 Jan 2007
Posts: 56
Location: York
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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Hi,
Yep the blockwork is only 100mm 4inch thick, it seems I have a number of options, replace the windows with 100mm blockwork, remove the bricks below the brickwork and replace with breezeblock, for the full hight of the garage so that the new sections of the wall are slightly thicker, but this will only be noticable from the inside.
I'll try and get more photos tonight if i make it home before it gets too dark, but the wall to the right of the door needs completely rebuilding as its in that area that the subsideance has occured ant the mortar between all the blocks is loose. (you can move the whole wall by leaning on it). It seems that maybe rebuilding in breeze block may be more sensible as the deeper block will have better strength, would i need to add re bar in the middle of the blocks if i used them, or are they strong enough on their own?
Also the door is pretty central, but i'll measure up tonight and post a quick diagram.
In relation to diagrams, UH I noticed in one of your posts you said you needed to learn some cad software, i've been using powerpoint for these, and though it sounds silly - it works well - I could write a quick page on how to use it if you think it would be of use to anyone??
MC |
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ultimatehandyman
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Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 9740
Location: Darwen, Lancashire
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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Using breeze blocks in the areas where you are goint to rebuild it makes sense to me, because they are wider they are much better at supporting the weight from the roof.
What are the foundations like?
Or is the blockwork built up from the base of the garage?
I can't believe you did those pics with powerpoint  I thought that it was just for presentations! Does it take long to do them using powerpoint? if it is fast a page on how to do it would be most helpful, especially for me
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Mad Chemist
Member
Joined: 22 Jan 2007
Posts: 56
Location: York
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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Hi UH,
The updated diagram with 6 inch seperation I added in a reply took me 2 - 3 mins starting from scratch.
I'l have a look at doing a quick page on it.
I'll have updated dimentions / photos of garage tonight.
MC |
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Slugster
Senior Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 965
Location: Cotswolds
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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To do these sorts of diagrams with Powerpoint is just about the quickest way you'll find to do it.
But then you'll have something else to distract you from your other 'hobbies' |
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