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 Post subject: Fencing question please?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:28 pm 
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Hello.
I have an end terrace property and am seeking to establish if the fences each side
are mine or party.

My deeds do not mention fences at all, the solicitor used at time of purchase
pleaded ignorance and none of the near neighbors can/will confirm either way.
Local council of no help ( could not be bothered for whatever reason )

Can anyone please advise if there is a local or national body that deals with such
questions, a body which can provide a definitive answer ?

Thank you. Pete.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:08 pm 
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On the Land registry plan of your plot it might show a T on one boundary which indicates boundary responsible illitu

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:19 pm 
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Yes hopefully it will be marked in the original (or subsequent) deeds of either your property or next door's, or may be mentioned in the text. If not, then legal ownership may have been lost or never have been formally established. It isn't always, in fact sometimes there aren't even things like deeds or land registry records at all.

I'm not aware of any national body with responsibility for this; AFAIK if formal ownership needs to be established, then it is a legal thing to be sorted out between the respective owners of the adjoining properties. Fences themselves don't come under the party wall act - deeds can call fences 'party fences' but it doesn't imply responsibility in the sense that the party wall act means (and you may also come across mention of 'party fence walls' but those are walls).

In some cases it may be possible to determine if the fence sits on one side of the boundary line or the other, though typically records aren't accurate enough to do that. Sometimes things can be done informally by negotiation or continuing presidents set in the past. Though boundaries (and even things close to them) can become a great source of bad feeling between neighbours too.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:50 pm 
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Many thanks to you both for the replies.
Pete.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:48 am 
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If there is a mark 'T' on either side of the property's boundary, then it is a party boundary and both you and your neighbour are responsible together. If there is no ‘T’ mark, it may be unclear who is responsible for the maintenance of that boundary. You should talk with your neighbour in this case. Good luck :)


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:28 am 
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Kind of.. The 'T' is indeed commonly used to denote a party boundary in deeds. BUT the term just means a boundary between two parties, it does not inherently imply dual responsibility or ownership. In fact frequently the opposite; the side of the boundary that the T is drawn on is often used to indicate which party has responsibility for any boundary structure (often referenced in the text as well).

It is sometimes confused with the recent 'party wall' act, but the two are different things. Especially so here, as the act doesn't apply to fences, but it may also not apply to walls etc if they don't straddle the party boundary.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:15 pm 
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Many thanks again. On the map included with my deeds, there
are no "T,s" marked on the boundery or on either side of it and
no mention of this in the text.
As for the neighbours deeds, I cannot say as I can get no
cooperation from either.
Thank you, Pete


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:22 pm 
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It's by no means definitive, but it was always traditional with a feather-edged fence (before panels were invented) to place the arris rails on the side of the fence owner.

With a terrace, one house at one end will always have two fences, if you have arris rails on your fences (or had them in the past and can remember their placement) it may give you a clue.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:10 pm 
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Many thanks Ayjay.
Fence panels to the left of my property have already been replaced,
did this at my own expense out of frustration with old lady owner at time.
Originals had rails on far side.

To my right, original fence panels from mid 70's, rails again on far side.
However, this estate ( long story ) was built primarily by poorly
supervised boys on the YOP scheme, so I doubt they knew or cared
which way round the panels were to be fitted.

Thanks again, Pete.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:27 pm 
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So rails on the far side (good side your side) means your neighbours fence...

However the fence/s could easily have been changed by previous owners who were also unaware of this.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:44 pm 
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When I replaced the fence between me and neighbours I was unsure who owned it but was fed up of a falling down fence so I paid and did it myself.As I was paying for it I wanted the decent side so aris rail went on neighbours side.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:53 pm 
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Hello again and thanks for the replies so far.

Am now told, that if there is nothing on the deeds of either party, confirming
specific responsibility for either fence or that they are in fact party fences,
the following rule of thumb applies.

Standing looking at the front of your property, the fence on the right is
your responsibility.

Can anyone offer any confirmation on this please?
Thank you, Pete.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:56 pm 
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keithski122 wrote:
When I replaced the fence between me and neighbours I was unsure who owned it but was fed up of a falling down fence so I paid and did it myself.As I was paying for it I wanted the decent side so aris rail went on neighbours side.


And so did I.(except I knew it was their fence/responsibility) And the neighbours complemented me on what a good job I'd done... :huray:

Thing is in England anyway, you don't automatically get a copy of the deeds when purchasing a house. You have to pay a fee if you want a copy. The land registry has gone all computerautomaticasized.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:02 pm 
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Peter3 wrote:

Standing looking at the front of your property, the fence on the right is
your responsibility.

Can anyone offer any confirmation on this please?
Thank you, Pete.


Nope. And nobody will. For example the property to my right (as you look from the front) was built at least 50 years before ours. And we are not responsible for that boundary/fence/

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:05 pm 
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It is a courtesy to have the fencr fair face to the neighbours if it is yours. The other reason is not to provide a ladder to allow any kids to get over. In this instance I think that it would be best to bite the bullet and do the fence at your expense, especially if the neighbours are arseholes.

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