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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:24 am 
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Hi, I've just joined this Forum. I'm pretty competent with electrics, having rewired my last two houses. Some years ago, I installed four external security floodlights (each 500W) which were connected to two separate PIRs (i.e. the PIR's were not connected to any of the lights) such that if either one of the PIR's picked up motion then all four lights would come on. This has worked very well - I've had to replace the bulbs once or twice and one of the PIRs needed replacing about three or four years ago.

I now need to replace the other PIR so today I visited my local B&Q Warehouse from where, over the years, I'd bought the lights, PIRs and bulbs. I now realise that halogen floodlights are gone, replaced by LED's, most of which come with their own dedicated PIR sensor. There seems to be only one standalone PIR that B&Q now sell - but this will only take a working load of 1000W (my 4 lights are 2000W in total) and the assistant who advised me said this PIR was essentially for LED lights and shouldn't be used for halogens - but she confessed she was from the gardening section and didn't really understand lighting. Scouring the internet for any suppliers of the "old-style" PIRs (for I guess this is what they now are) has turned up nothing. So here are the things I'm looking for advice on....

1. Does anyone know where I can get hold of an "old-style" PIR which can operate a ganged load of 2000W?
2. Should I persevere with my "old style" PIRs and halogen lights?
3. If I were to swap out all four lights for LED's, should I go for 100W LED's?
4. What sort of cost would I be looking at?
5. Would the B&Q PIR (max 1000W load) be suitable for 4 x 100W LED's? (I assume the answer is yes)
6. Are the wiring principles the same? i.e. take the switched lives from both PIRs and wire them to all 4 LED's

I assume if and when an LED light goes, it has to be completely replaced, which sounds expensive, not to say a drag having to re-install. My current setup is minimal running cost; I don't know how many times in a typical night the lights come on, but I'm reasonably sure it's infrequent and they're timed for 5 minutes duration. I have a supply of the halogen bulbs which will keep me going for at least another 2-3 years. I'm anticipating quite a cost to switch to all-LED's and am wondering if it's worth it. Considering how seldom my lights are on, I don't think I'm contributing much to the decline of the ozone layer.

All advice gratefully accepted.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:43 am 
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1) Can't say I have ever heard of a pir that can switch 2kw (not saying they don't exist)

2) Why bother? 2kw of lighting is not cheap to run compared to say 100w of LED lighting

3) Why 100w? I wouldn't 100w LED lights cost silly money (£60 each) I would opt for something like 20w or even 30w (watts are energy used, not how bright it is)

4) Depends on what you choose to do, so its not possible to answer other than what I have just said.

5) Depends on the PIR.

6) No need to alter any wiring.

How do you know how long your lights are on for? they could be on / off all night you would not know when you are asleep (Unless one is pointing into your bedroom)
Yes it is worth changing to LED's, save money on running costs.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:48 am 
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Hi someone-else, thanks for replying.

1. To quote from the instruction manual "lighting loads must not exceed max. 2000W tungsten halogen, 1000W incandescent or 500W fluorescent"
3. I've seen various references on the internet where a 100W LED is compared to a 500W halogen, e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-cV0_JKauk
5. This is the one in my B&Q: https://www.diy.com/departments/blooma-brant-white-mains-motion-sensor/3663602893431_BQ.prd?rrec=true#icamp=recs It doesn't say in the online spec but on the box it said Max. load 1000W though it didn't qualify whether this was halogen, incandescent, or LED (or a mixture)

"How do you know how long your lights are on for?" - I agree this is a bit subjective, however from our main bedroom we can see through the curtains if it's on, and over the course of the 20-or-so years since I installed them, including sleepless nights etc... my wife and I have gained a reasonable impression. But you're right, I wouldn't write a thesis based on it.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:03 am 
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As I said, I do not dispute that a PIR exists that can switch 2kw, just that I have never seen one, and if you use LED lights, you will not need one.

I would never buy a 100w LED flood light for £100. Its too much £ to change when it fails (£100 is what the YT video bloke said) I would still stick with a 30W, why don't you buy one and try it?

I have two 5w LED lamps to light up where I park, even though only 5w they are really brilliant (No pun intended)

As I said, if you change to LED you will not need a high switching capacity PIR

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:45 am 
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There are plenty of 2kW PIRs available. But does the OP really need 500W of light at each point?

My outside lighting is the only lighting I have that is NOT LED and is very unlikely to become LED in the near future.

However I have fitted an awful lot of LED floodlights and even before I was fitting LEDs I could get a customer to try a 300W halogen instead of a 500W halogen and they could not see any difference.

The LEDs floodlights have the disadvantage of usually been cool white with a poor CRI and tend to have a narrower beam spread than the old halogens. But I have found that a 50W LED is usually OK.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:21 pm 
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Only me, can you direct me to where I can buy a 2kW PIR, please?

The lights have to light up quite a large area, the perimeter of the property is about 15m from the house on three sides. I recently replaced a 500W halogen with a 300W and the reduced brightness is very noticeable. Hence I was thinking 100W LED's if I do convert.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:03 pm 
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I certainly can, the link is here

http://bfy.tw/JHsD

And be careful of those cheap ebay LED floodlights.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:04 pm 
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:welcomeuhm:
splinternet wrote:
I now need to replace the other PIR so today I visited my local B&Q Warehouse from where, over the years, I'd bought the lights, PIRs and bulbs. I now realise that halogen floodlights are gone, replaced by LED's, most of which come with their own dedicated PIR sensor.
That is because B&Poo cares for a particular market. You can get standalone PIRs.
Quote:
1. Does anyone know where I can get hold of an "old-style" PIR which can operate a ganged load of 2000W?
2. Should I persevere with my "old style" PIRs and halogen lights?
3. If I were to swap out all four lights for LED's, should I go for 100W LED's?
4. What sort of cost would I be looking at?
5. Would the B&Q PIR (max 1000W load) be suitable for 4 x 100W LED's? (I assume the answer is yes)
6. Are the wiring principles the same? i.e. take the switched lives from both PIRs and wire them to all 4 LED's


I cannot advise you what to do, that is your choice. I could not say my LEDs have lasted that well but maybe if you had my cats turning them on all the time your bulbs would not last that well either. There again my lights were cheap stuff from ebay and possibly no different to the unbranded stuff sold by "shops". If you go down the route of LEDs, they have a short fixed cable, so you need a junction box near the light to which you take the supply from the PIR. Otherwise they should be the same stuff.

Here is a PIR https://www.toolstation.com/shop/p11555 and another https://www.toolstation.com/shop/p88283 and there are more on the toolstation catalogue (you can see it at the top right of web pages). Similar at scroofix which is a sister company to B&Poo. I am sure there will be more if you start looking at the specialist electrical suppliers.

Whatever PIRs you decide to get, some (all?) would allow you to turn the lights on without the timer if you double click the switch on the supply cable to the PIR (On-Off-On within a few seconds). You may have or you may want that functionality.

If it helps a little (caveat, I am not a sparky).

EDIT. More PIRs here including what appears to be 2KW+ ones (I followed my own advice and looked at a specialist supplier).


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:09 pm 
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Hi,

You can buy LED replacement bulbs only for your halogen lights. Then you don't need a 2kw PIR

LEDs have lower consumption and last longer than halogen (so they say).



Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:00 am 
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sammy.se wrote:
Hi,

You can buy LED replacement bulbs only for your halogen lights. Then you don't need a 2kw PIR

LEDs have lower consumption and last longer than halogen (so they say).



Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


:welcomeuhm:

Have you actually tried these replacement LED lamps?

Trust me, they are absolute garbage.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:59 am 
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OnlyMe wrote:
sammy.se wrote:
Hi,

You can buy LED replacement bulbs only for your halogen lights. Then you don't need a 2kw PIR

LEDs have lower consumption and last longer than halogen (so they say).



Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


:welcomeuhm:

Have you actually tried these replacement LED lamps?

Trust me, they are absolute garbage.
For smaller bulbs yes (GU9 I think), but not halogen.. what makes them so bad?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:00 am 
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OnlyMe wrote:
Have you actually tried these replacement LED lamps?

Trust me, they are absolute garbage.


TBH I had never heard of them, so I looked them up, most seem to be around 10Watt (not much use for a flood light) Others I saw seem to be too big to fit in some light fittings, and as for the cost (ok, not umpteen £ but I was thinking a complete new fitting would be better)

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Which is correct? Metre or Meter? Click the link to find out more.

Working on anything electrical? have you got a multi meter? why not? Would you hit a nail with a shoe?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:34 am 
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In particular I am talking about flood light replacement lamps.

I have swapped/installed thousands of smaller lamps for LED (GU10 BC22GLS etc) with very good results.

The linear LED replacement lamps just do not cut the mustard.

eg

https://www.toolstation.com/shop/Lighti ... amp/p28889

is 6W and 510lm. That is not IMHO a suitable replacement for a 500W 5000lm halogen lamp.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:04 am 
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Philips and Osram do 14w or 15w R7 118mm led replacements but there not exactly cheap - the Philips is 1600lm and 300 degree angle in warm white (2700k ?)


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:07 am 
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Fair enough, good to know, thx

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