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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:52 pm 
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somapop wrote:
I've just spoken to F BALL & Co Technical team and they, bluntly, didn't advise laying any product (including the 1200) on Ashphalt over 6mm, even with aggregate (some sections are a fair bit over 10-15mm). One suggestion was to remove the asphalt entirely...just how the heck I could manage that, logistically and financially is a bit of a headache. Anything deeper could potentially lift the asphalt up apparently...
Were they covering their own backs re advice on their products?
I'm at an utter loss what to do...or am I just panicking and should just go ahead and lay the 1200 with aggregate?!! :(


Fair enough if F-ball tech said not to install 1200 over Ashpalt at them depths. Glad you rang tech. It's a hard one to give advice now :-)

Ripping up all your ashpalt for the sake of a couple of foot seems like madness but if F-ball feel that a couple of foot of deep 1200 is likely to pop/lift the ashpalt (which I'd say is something you wouldn't really know has happened until further down the line) what can you do??

Ripping all the ashpalt up is going to be extremely costly. Lifting the ashpalt isn't to hard. Just messy. It'll come up in pieces once - you get a start - by sending a long crow bar underneath sections. The Ashpalt isn't fixed to the concrete underneath it. Once all the Ashpalt has been removed, you'll have to hire a commercial grinder with extraction (hire for around £150 a day plus a hefty deposit) and grind the concrete slab to remove contaminants and prepare the concrete (this really isn't a nice job, even with extraction). Then you'll need to install a liquid DPM (£££) to replace the job the Ashpalt was doing. If the concrete is badly pitted, you may need to install a moisture tolerant compound first.

You could just install a moisture tolerant compound and then a 1000 gauge visqueen sheet, but I personally don't like that idea. It just doesn't sit right with me. You may also need a large amount of compound to replace the depth of material you've lost from the Ashpalt removal. Not necessarily all of it, due to the thickness of wood you're going for.

All in all and in my opinion, you're going into the realms of needing to bring in the pro's. It's a lot to do (and get right) for someone that doesn't do it every day. You could do the Ashpalt lifting, that's just the grunt work..

Let's look at approaching it from a slightly different angle then. You could glue ply (of an appropriate thickness) to the ashpalt. Again, you need an adhesive that's compatible with ashpalt (tech calls again), as a way of building up the area, so you're not using thick layers of compound. The ply would need to be slightly lower than the levels you need. Then pour compound over the ply and feather in as before. It'll need a keen eye to get right, but I'd say it's certainly an option to consider.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:17 pm 
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Arghh Wes...I was hoping you'd say, 'Nah, they're just covering their backs...go ahead and use as suggested previously' :( !

I actually had four bags (and aggregate) in my 'shopping cart' and only rang to enquire as to next day delivery (plan was this weekend)...it's only when I mentioned what I was doing I was given the info.
So...I rang Ardex (straight through to the tech team this time) and spoke to a really helpful chap. However, the Arditex NA and latex would be exactly the same as the F Ball - nothing over 6mm.

I thought I was at the final straight, but it's going a bit awry!

Absolutely agree the asphalt lift and re laying would be a nightmare job, not just for me but in general. My other half uses house as childminding/nursery all week, so it's logistically impossible and financially too (we put a family holiday to one side this year to put money towards the house, including the floor.
It is indeed just two small sections. Actually, the one in the living room (1x2m maximum) is very firm...aside from one chunk that came up last year, it's been steady for two years (and this is a section that's hidden by a sofa). Not sure whether to ignore the cracks there and just lay in that case?

Plywood does seem like a good idea wes. 15mm sections, 10mm then 5mm sheets (as it thins/levels out)? I will enquire about an adhesive for ply with Ardex tomorrow (the bloke was genuinely helpful and knowledgeable), but I did mention ply and he kind of intimated it might be a similar scenario (once the strength of the top layer adhered to the asphalt becomes thicker than the asphalt it can potentially just pull the asphalt up...). Unchartered territory for me here...I haven't a clue.

He did mention silica sand as an option (and I later looked it up and I think Kahrs at one time suggested it). Far from perfect, but might be the only option I have left (utterly discounting pulling up the floor and laying a new one). I'd worry the sand would find it's way out, unless I framed out (thin wood adhered to the asphalt perimeter) then maybe a thin layer of ply on top acting as a lip (if you can picture that). Thoughts?

This will keep me awake tonight at the least :cb

Thanks Wes.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:34 pm 
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Well, Somapop, I really must genuinely apologies for giving you duff info and leading you so far down this path. If you've had the same advice from both F-ball and Ardex regards the Ashpalt popping/lifting - although, it may not happen - I must concede to the manufacturers advice. It's their product and their experience. Ardex have been around for 50 years. I've only been on the planet for 38 and most of that has been spent scratching my balls :lol:

On a serious note, I'm a member of a floor training forum and a couple of other groups etc, and have just remembered a product that has been highly rated by several pro installers and a leading tutor. I think it may well solve your problem. The only issue being the supply and cost, of which I'm not sure of either. You'll have to do some digging. Anyway, the product is called 'eco pearls' - http://www.unifloor.nl/en/product/ecopearls. I really thing this has got to be the best option!


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:18 pm 
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You've got absolutely nothing to apologise for Wes! You're an utter flooring genius!
That pulling up of asphalt might never happen and they're explicitly laying out a worse case scenario to cover their backs. I could've laid it, left it 10 years no issues...moved house and be none the wiser! :)
I've not purchased anything and if I hadn't received any advice from you in the first instance I would've laid directly onto that crap cempolay...or added another dollop of that crap cempolay! :lol:

That Eco pearls looks ace so far Wes (I've watched a small segment but got to head out t'Mediacity to pick my daughter up.
I'll have a look at that on the morrow. Given the area size I should't need too much so cost wise (fingers crossed!!) it shouldn't be too much if it's the right solution to this PITA! Certainly far less troublesome than a new base floor!

If, in the meantime, you know of anybody who has used this product drop us a line.

Fingers crossed I can get hold of some Wes...or it's the sandy route :lol:

Many thanks.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:29 pm 
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http://www.easylaysystems.co.uk/#!other-products/cjg9

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:13 pm 
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Could potentially be a superb solution Wes.
I'll give them bell tomorrow and report back.

Huge thanks!



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:33 pm 
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Hi Wes - spoke with the UK supplier you linked to above on Friday...wowsers.
I think you're right...this is quite possibly the 'Angel' I was looking for. Had a good long chat with a guy at the firm (ex floorer) who, again, was more than helpful and knowledgeable. I felt, maybe for a brief moment, this could be snake oil such was it's seemingly incredible ability to utterly fix my solution...but then I remember you mentioned a few of your peers and a tutor highly recommend it.
The video (laying the stuff) looked a little convoluted, but when I spoke to the guy from the company above, it's more than fine to lay this directly onto a blue sheeting (up the walls a little to prevent loss of the pearls) then add the DPM underlay then the engineered wood flooring (although the video states 10mm max 'solid' wood, my 15mm floor will be absolutely fine).
I have no other workable option Wes. This stuff sounds really spot on. No waiting for screed to dry, just lay it, level it then carry on with the floor.

My tiny concern at the moment is the existing cempolay. Some of this is absolutely stuck to the asphalt (incredibly...perhaps these are the thinner sections). Worried if I take that up (and it will need hammering...literally) it might muck up the asphalt below. The guy I was speaking to advised that the pearls can be poured into cracks in concrete etc...so might be best to remove as much of the old screed as possible then pour the pearls in between?

He did mention it might be easier to use a laser level...and I've always wanted an excuse to buy one :) I think a smallish one can be sourced pretty cheaply. I'll use a 2x2 long batten to screed/level (if I can find a straight one!).

So plan is to (once most of the old stuff is removed) place down blue poly sheet just over the affected areas, place down DPM underlay, then lay floor. We estimated just two bags of the stuff would suffice (50kilo bags) - works out twice as cheap as the Fball/Arditex method. They're only down the road in Stoke too.

He described the pearls as a little like snow - tiny grooves/etches which link up with the the pearks and grip/compact (can be laid up to 50mm).

I think perhaps the sense of 'impermanance' is the only niggling doubt...but once it's down and the floor is laid....out of sight, out of mind etc.

All sound ok?!! Will probably order some this evening, then pop in a next day delivery on the floor too...hopefully crack on with the laying this weekend.
Oh...and pick some of those straps up from Wickes?!

Many thanks.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 9:03 pm 
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Fantastic! It was a bit of a light bulb moment :-)

It does seem to tick all the boxes. I wish I could give you some first hand advice with the stuff, but I've not used it yet. Sounds like it's pretty straight forward and you're set really. You'll have the added advantage of being able to mess about with it to get it right, unlike a compound, as it only has a limited time to work with.

As for the well stuck compound, if it doesn't come up with a good scrape or hammer (light hammer :-)), it likely won't be going anywhere, so I wouldn't worry about it. As for the impermanence, unless your foundations start sliding, I wouldn't worry about that either.

The tutor was from 'floorskills training centre' by the way. Last time it was discussed, he was running tests and was very impressed with it. I'm pretty confident you'll know how good it is as you're installing it, and of course, you'll no doubt be laying planks across it dry to see how it initially performs :-) It actually seems like a well thought out product, although I can see why people may be skeptical.

You're my guinea pig at the moment :-) So I'll look forward to your update on how it went. Frankly, there's no end to dodgy ashpalt floors in this country, so this really could be a solution I'll very well be using in the near future :thumbright:

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 11:58 am 
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I'll let you know Wes - almost certain this will be what I'll end up using. Now it's a case of logistics and having the time to lay the whole lot. Added to this is the fact I'm going for untreated wood, but will oil (two coats clear Hardwax oil - possibly one coat of lighter pigment before if we prefer the lighter look). Something like Treatex suggests second coat can be added after 4 hours. Hopefully means I can get two coats down in the day and the family can get back in the house!
Not sure what your experience is with oiling floors but does that sound feasible?

I can pick up a DPM poly sheet for relatively little cost - 1000ga - this is purely for the sections I'm laying the pearls onto...which isn't really that big of a space. I'll tape it up the walls and make good once the skirting goes on).

Then the underlay - something likes these (as an example):

3mm:

Image

http://www.wickes.co.uk/Wickes-Premium-Kitchen-and-Bathroom-Underlay/p/191372

Image

http://www.screwfix.com/p/acoustalay-foam-underlay-with-dpm-3mm-18m-green-blue/45461

I've found some of those straps at tool station - about a fiver. The flooring is good quality (as far as I can tell - certainly qualified from floorers reporting on it) - approx 5 of these (having never used them before)?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 6:40 pm 
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I don't deal with finishing. I tend to sub out for that.

I would say that you need to keep the wood clean. A slightly damp micro fibre cloth as you go should be enough. Any pva left on the surface is going to show up as a stain mark when you oil it. If excess pva is left, it'll soak into the timber. You really will have to be very conscious of this. Watch out for pva oozing up from the joins and collecting beneath the straps. It's an easy thing to miss. The straps will gently pull the joins together, so you may find that you wipe pva away, and then it appears again a little later on.

Are you planning on sanding the floor prior to applying the oil?

If the eco pearls company have advised you to use 1000 gauge sheet, then fair enough.

The underlays you've linked too seem fine..

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:47 pm 
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Hi Wes - the boards (this 'model' anyway) comes sanded, but untreated. They other versions that's had a coat of oil but not hard wax so that would still need to be carried out. I'm going to try one board treated with Treatex 'natural' (contains a white pigment, essentially keeping the boards pretty much the same colour as untreated - pale/light) and the other half with clear hard wax oil from the off. Initially I really liked the lighter, paler looking oak, but I suspect the warmth of the clear oil (gets a tad confusing here) will win out. We tried samples of both in the house for a bit...and 90% went for the warmer oak that had been pre treated.

Wes - I wasn't planning to glue...just float on the underlay and have done (worried I might have to one day pull them up) - I haven't asked this of the firm, however (since I posted this earlier) I spoke about underlay and they recommended 'Elastilon' which would be as good as glueing/nailing the floor (I believe it's an adhesive based underlay?).
This is twice as expensive as the stuff I posted above, but if it helps with the floor then I might consider it. Just about to look at a vid of the stuff...whilst t'footy is on :-)
Worth considering (elastilon)?

If I make a decision tonight, I can pop an order for the boards tomorrow am and have here by Friday :shock:

Also ordered the eco pearls earlier too - hopefully turn up tomorrow/Friday. If you ever want to have a peek at the stuff you're more than welcome matey!

Panic stations now...2-3 years of dark asphalt may be cast away soon :)

Cheers.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:59 pm 
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Just had a look at the elastilon vid - does indeed mention PVA'ing the header (I was probably confusing 'glueing' down the boards to the subfloor?). I'll need a bottle of PVA then...

I must admit the elastilon looks like a decent (and easier) product, although (from what I can gather) I'll still need to lay a DPM across the entire floor (one isn't built in like the ones linked above). However, by adhering to the boards above I'd probably find it a whole lot easier.

Cheers.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 9:24 pm 
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With the underlays you linked too earlier, the boards would have required full pvaing.

With elastilon you wouldn't require full pvaing, as you now know. Take heed regards elastilon. The alignment of the starter rows is absolutely critical (As it is with any fixed or semi fixed timber floor). Once the timber has stuck to the underlay, it is STUCK! Bare in mind you'll need full 'un broken' lengths of underlay (obviously multiples to cover the room), laid perpendicular to the lengths you'll be running the floor in (I'm sure you gathered that from the vid). What I'm actually saying is, don't cock it up at any stage. The elastilon relies on it's integrity and continuity.

Although the pvaing method is a little more permanent, the joints are fused which gives for a more solid feel. You'll also have the tack drying time (around 20 minutes) of the adhesive to mess around with it. With the elastilon, once you pull the film back and the underlay touches the timber, you're done, as said before. Also the joints aren't fused. Therefore, if the sub-floor isn't FLAT (particularly in traffic areas), you'll get movement of the joints when foot pressure is applied, which can lead to creaking as the wood rubs together.

It's tricky gear that sticky underlay. On paper, it's a utopic solution to all mans woes, but it can bite. It does have its place though, and providing you take your time before going for the pull, you'll be fine.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:18 pm 
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Cheers Wes.
Torn now...I had a feeling there might be an issue over the boards sticking pretty much permanently as soon as they're laid on to that stuff. Small, square room would be a good start, but this is a small hall (with a curved stair bottom to contend with) entering two reception rooms (as per the drawing from page 1). I'm imagining starting in the hall then ending up with the long run of the dining/living room a bit skewed. Likewise starting the long run in the dining/living room and ending up with a skewed hall (one thing I've learned from this refurb is old houses are anything but straight in any of the dimensions)!

Image

Hall:

Image

Living room entering dining room (the hall fits into the left of this pic):

Image

btw - advice for this particular floor was to ignore the threshold between the dining/living room (the missus was really keen on having the flooring flow without a break - I initially planned on an expansion gap). However, I suspect I'll need one between the hall and the first room (there is a noticeable climate difference here...but that's another story all together).

Bit apprehensive of that elastion underlay now, although if I take my time perhaps that might be the better solution.
Most of the traffic areas are flat, it's the corners of the rooms which dip (most of which are covered by furniture anyway...but any creaks would get on my wick somewhat.

Thanks once again for your help Wes!!


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 5:56 pm 
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Ok - everything ordered and have just taken delivery of it all: engineered flooring, underlay (I, apprehensively, went for Elastilon), poly DPM (elastilon doesn't have the built in barrier), glue and the eco pearls (I may have to drop a thin sheet of ply over the top before the underlay depending on how I can get away with not walking on the pearls/underlay only (before the wood goes down),
I'll do a few tests before I lay anything permanently however. However, I've just 'had a play' with the stuff and you can see how it works (you can stand up on the upright bag and it feels solid).

Having talked with the flooring company we didn't feel it necessary to allow for thresholds bearing in mind the type of flooring and install method. I wasn't that fussed but the missus felt a clean run through the two rooms would look better.
Also, the door between the hall and the living room isn't necessary (although I do actually think a door threshold bar looks better).

I'll need to pick up some more expansion gap wedges, but my only concern now is where the start the first run!
In the hall/entrance? Or on the long run in the dining room/living room (working towards the hall). I quite help thinking one of the sections (hall or both receptions as per the pic above) will be skewed?!
I'm running them lengthways up the rooms btw.

But...having the stuff in front of me breaks down a lot of the worry. Certainly, although this is different (and more costly), every laminate I've laid has always turned out spot on.

Cheers!


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