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 Post subject: Re: Electrons?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:13 pm 
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wine~o wrote:
Close but no cigar.

The thing that you call a "light bulb" is actually a "darkon absorber" Darkons are all around us. They can only be eliminated by switching on the Darkon absorber. Our nearest star (called the Sun) is the biggest Darkon absorber in our solar system. I hope this helps..


Ah thank you so very much. It is good to share knowledge and I will now indoctrinate my children with the understanding of a "darkon absorber".

I am certain that they will thank me for such knowledge.

You have helped future generations....thank you.

So are negative electrons just the reflection of this "darkon absorber"?

??


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 Post subject: Re: Electrons?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:23 pm 
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Dave54 wrote:
I think that "Positive" and "Negative" are just the terms used for the opposite "charges"
You're sort of straying into chemistry though, with charge states and elemental particles.
Chemistry really ain't my strong suite!


Are you describing .... good and evil?

Elemental particles along with states of being!

Are you stating that electrons are 'used' by us and that this is fundamentally immoral?

I just wanted to know what electricity was :cb


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 Post subject: Re: Electrons?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:31 pm 
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I think i mentioned in an earlier post that electrical energy gets converted into light and / or heat.. sooo the energy doesn't disappear or dissipate ... It just gets "converted" into a different sort of energy.

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 Post subject: Re: Electrons?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:49 pm 
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wine~o wrote:
I think i mentioned in an earlier post that electrical energy gets converted into light and / or heat.. sooo the energy doesn't disappear or dissipate ... It just gets "converted" into a different sort of energy.


Cool....so an electron just gets to move quicker (heat) or becomes a photon!

So my washing machine is creating light from electrons....would that be correct?

.


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 Post subject: Re: Electrons?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:15 pm 
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Electron movement is energy - it takes energy to get the electron moving in the first place so what you put 'in' to get the electron moving is what you take 'out' to power the item you intend.

But before the electron gets where it's meant to be it 'bumps into things' one the way - this is 'resistance' and it saps the energy from the electrons each and every time it hits them. It manifests itself as heat (since you can't create/destroy it, you change its form from electricity to heat instead).

In theory you CAN put electrons into a loop and save them for use later but you have to remove the resistance that saps them (eventually to zero) and the only way to get resistance to zero is to cool the conductor to 'absolute zero' (-273 deg C) where you get zero resistance and a current will flow in a closed loop conductor indefinitely.

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 Post subject: Re: Electrons?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:29 pm 
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lake wrote:
So can I simply ask....what is electric?

What is it?



I should have looked in earlier, could have saved you all some time.

It's MAGIC. :thumbright:

(and I understand magic no more than I do electrickery) :help:

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 Post subject: Re: Electrons?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:34 am 
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Years ago I was taught to consider it like water, so if you have central heating the water moves around the system transferring energy as it does from boiler to radiator and in the main it is the same water going around and around, so may leak out which takes a route to sea and is the evaporated and goes into the clouds which fall as rain and it may end up refilling the header tank but most goes round and round in circles.

With the wire again most the electrons go round and round in circles, some may escape as radio signals and also radio signals may be received but most goes round and round in circles.



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 Post subject: Re: Electrons?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:54 pm 
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*sighs*

If you want to use the water analogy, it's a river. The gradient of the river is the voltage, the current is the amount of water flowing. When you apply a voltage to a (semi)conductor, there is a current. Makes me shout at the TV/radio when I hear someone say "they applied an electric current and blah blah" I never hear what "blah blah" since I'm rallying against their ignorance.

Conductors (metals) have electrons in the outer shell of the atom that are loosely bound and easily moved; a sea of free electrons. Applying a voltage, creates an electric field and the mobile electrons interact with the fixed positive nuclei. The electrons themselves do move, but at a drift velocity which is usually tiny. It depends on conductivity, cross-sectional area and current from memory. Generally the speed is bugger all as in fractions of a mm per second. Under DC, they slowly drift about, under AC they just jiggle back and forth.

Resistance is broadly the physical movement of the free electrons interacting with inner shell electrons (more tightly bound) and the positively charged nucleus.

Very broadly, radiowaves, light, heat, x-rays etc are produced by electrons releasing energy by moving from a higher energy state to a lower state within the atom. The electrons don't escape.

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 Post subject: Re: Electrons?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:50 pm 
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Yes you can ring them as you said, I am a little green now, it is a long time since I studied to be a radio ham, but I do remember the filters used could have a lot more power circulating inside them than actually went through them, which resulted in large cable sized inside the filter.

Seem to remember some thing about aiming for a High Q there is a link here it was one of those things I had to do to pass the RAE but once passed I put it to the back of my mind.

Once one starts looking at the atomic level electrics gets complex, I started with DC and we had argument as to which direction electric flows, people say negative to positive which with electrons is true, but inside a battery it's not electron flow, as to doping silicon making it P or N type it gets really complex, I thought a semi-conductor was the driver of a one man bus?

So the electron moves backward and forwards in the wires making the circuit between the transformer secondary and the light bulb, where it causes the bulb to transmit in the light frequency of the electromagnetic spectrum in the range of 400–700 nanometres (nm). With a tungsten bulb also in the inferred range which is not wasted as it heats up your house.

Since we use AC not DC we do not get ions flowing in the same way, however when using the earth as a safety conductor we do get problems with erosion due to metals used being in a different place on the electro chemical chart. So we use isolation transformers and even diodes to stop current flowing in one direction in earth wires. Only seen them on boats.

Poor consideration of earthing requirements can result in the Zinc lumps welded onto boats disappearing, that always seems to be in one direction, they never grow back again. But in a secondary battery it can be reversed.

However why do we need to know? The answer changes, according to why, if studying for 'A' level physics they have stock answers which are not all ways true. I looked at the diagram given so show how a fluorescent tube works and they had missed out the ballast, so the starting elements would burn out, also likely the starter, if it did light there would be nothing to limit current so there would be a big bang, more likely it would just fail. When my wife put a son bulb in a ES fitting there was a big bang as there was no ballast and the fuse ruptured.

But we are expected to give answers shown in the book, even if wrong, my son was asked at school did he know what were the two types of transistor, he answered field effect and bipolar sir, he was told he was wrong, and it was NPN and PNP, he was not endeared to his teacher when he bust out laughing. He did not bother arguing that was left to me when I saw the teacher latter that night.

So we have to learn what the school book says, at least until level 4 when it all turns around and you are actually guided to think for your self.



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 Post subject: Re: Electrons?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:11 pm 
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Einstein( amongst others) said , as others have pointed out, that matter(or energy) cannot be destroyed, just converted to another form.
As I understand it, electrons are not "used", the same number finish(more or less) as start. ie. they flow THROUGH things, and in so doing cause an effect-heating or whatever, but flow out again the other side.
Kirchov's law states that current is equal in all parts of a series circuit( and voltages across each element in that circuit total the supply) so the flow of current is the same all the way round. They don't actually "go" anywhere.

Positive and negative are actually a bit confusing. There is Electron flow( negative to positive-electrons are negatively charged so are attracted to the positive) and conventional flow( positive to negative-the way electricity was thought of before we knew about electron flow)

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 Post subject: Re: Electrons?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:36 am 
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Of course electrons aren't 'used'. They are just the medium to transfer energy. Everything in nature tends to prefer an equilibrium, if you therefore create a potential difference (what we measure in volts), electrons will want to travel from the negative to the positive side to 'fix' this imbalance.

Normally current is generated by electrons moving from one atom to the next. Atoms have 'spheres' that have space for electrons. The emptier the outer 'sphere', the better a material is at conducting (or the easier it is for the atom to absorb a 'free' electron). Electrons don't usually 'flow' like a river. They simply move to an adjacent atom but by doing so they create an electrical imbalance which in turn nudges an electron to move to its next neighbour - and so on.

I said normally as there are examples, like certain electrolytes and proton conductors where the current is performed by positive charge carriers rather than electrons.

If your potential difference is from say a battery and you connect the poles, at some point that potential difference will be gone (empty battery). The electrons haven't gone, they simply moved to create equilibrium. But the path they travelled was not (energy) loss-free, they would have generated heat, (electro) magnetic fields, or they may have been absorbed by atoms along the way. It is that 'loss' we use to create light, heat & movement. That 'loss' will be equal to the energy stored as a potential difference in the battery before we connected it.

Electric power is simply the energy consumption (the energy the electrons loose when they travel) per time unit, P = E / t, and we measure this in Watts. For simple calculations this equates to V * I (potential difference * current) which gives a linear relation between the potential difference you need to create and the current that needs to flow to 'generate' an electic power of a certain wattage (i.e. twice the volts require only half the amps) .



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