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 Post subject: Carillion in liquidation
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:24 pm 
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Bad news for a lot of people subbing to them.

Over 10 years ago I got in with a builder who gave us loads of insurance work. It was all through Carillion, and it was brilliant.

The job sheets were very fair, and allowed more than enough time for jobs and were generous in material cost.

I don't know why, but that seemed to stop overnight and Asprea took over from them - maybe the insurance work wasn't big enough for them?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:20 pm 
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Sad but not unexpected I had shares and got out a few months ago still lost a fair bit. but not everything like current shareholders
The banks will lose what they have lent to Carillion
The subcontractors and jv partners are on the hook for what is owed to them by carillion for work completed but not paid for
https://www.constructionnews.co.uk/comp ... 47.article
Employees working under public sector outsourced agreements will be ok as the government will bring inhouse before retendering again
Employees working on private sector outsourced agreements will probably be similarly protected as the contracts will be novated back in under the terms of the agreement
However their pensions will be put into the pension protection fund which means the returns will be less

IMHO a lot of the reason they went bust was because of wreckless expansion at any cost, badly managed bidding processes, then writing loss making contracts and not managing those contracts, especially in the middle east. They also were running a big pension deficit. We ought to have more robust laws so we can lock up some of the perpetrators of this type of reckless/incompetent managerial activity.

https://www.ft.com/content/945238c6-a4e ... 5e6a7c98a2



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:24 pm 
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Carillion have been in trouble for years. Bet the board still took their bonuses this year though...

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:52 pm 
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Another sad indicment of privatisation and outsourcing.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:52 pm 
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Whilst I have a great deal of sympathy for the many small sub-contractors they employed I have little for much of the management of the company itself. Having worked on a number of their larger projects over the years I'm afraid that I often found that they were hidebound, blinkered and overly-prescriptive in their approach to health and safety and that the man management style of quite a lot of their graduate trainees quite frankly stank (and I have worked on projects for Wilmot-Dixon, ISG, Russells, Keir, Grahams, Interserve, etc). I for one am not sorry that they have gone. Good luck to the good guys who were there (yes, there were some brilliant managers, sadly very outnumbered on our jobs) - I hope that they can find a decent future elsewhere in the industry

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:42 pm 
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Argyll wrote:
Another sad indicment of privatisation and outsourcing.

Unfortunately local government workers cannot build or maintain property at anything like the speed,budget or quality of private contractors. There is no profit in public sector work for these huge building contractors now either tho so it was inevitable carillon were going to go bust.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:13 am 
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I know it's on a different scale but it is one of the reasons I don't work for builders, etc. All but one of my customers over the last ten years was a domestic customer and not one of them went bust.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:38 am 
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It is sad really that a lot of people will lose their jobs. Not all of them will be re-employed in whatever bits of the company survive. Equally bad for the subcontractors who will not get paid and they too will lose jobs. As an outsider to the company/industry I can't say I like how widely they diversified.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:52 am 
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OchAye wrote:
It is sad really that a lot of people will lose their jobs. Not all of them will be re-employed in whatever bits of the company survive. Equally bad for the subcontractors who will not get paid and they too will lose jobs. As an outsider to the company/industry I can't say I like how widely they diversified.
When I was in the military and living in married quarters they were shocking. It could take weeks for them to come and look at a job before saying "sorry I need parts, I'll have to order them" this led to more waiting around.

I feel sorry for the workers as it is all management led and the workers are the ones that will suffer.

This was posted on an raf forum I frequent and is quite accurate despite the humour.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:59 am 
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... and the low and middle management is pushed to deliver profits for the shareholders (and bonuses for the big bosses) and there we have the result. Watch out for Virgin next. Doesn't like the East Coast main line but sues the NHS for not giving it some contract. Lovely world.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:45 pm 
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1. Lucrative contract awarded.
2. Carillion take their cut, distribute dividends and bonuses based on the substantial 'profit'.
3. The whole contract is subcontracted down a long chain where every step of the way someone takes 'their cut' according to (2.) above.
4. The people at the bottom of the heap work for peanuts and are the first to suffer when it all goes tits up.
5. Go to step 1.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:44 pm 
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kellys_eye wrote:
1. Lucrative contract awarded.
2. Carillion take their cut, distribute dividends and bonuses based on the substantial 'profit'.
3. The whole contract is subcontracted down a long chain where every step of the way someone takes 'their cut' according to (2.) above.
4. The people at the bottom of the heap work for peanuts and are the first to suffer when it all goes tits up.
5. Go to step 1.


Bummer, let me see... What does that remind of, what... Bonuses being paid and profits assumed the momen papers are signed. What... it is on the tip of my tongue.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:22 am 
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steviejoiner74 wrote:
Argyll wrote:
Another sad indicment of privatisation and outsourcing.

Unfortunately local government workers cannot build or maintain property at anything like the speed,budget or quality of private contractors. There is no profit in public sector work for these huge building contractors now either tho so it was inevitable carillon were going to go bust.


But the public sector/ prisons/schools and hospitals shouldn't be for profit anyway.

On that model you have to answer to shareholders first to ensure they receive their dividend before the customer.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:35 pm 
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Argyll wrote:
steviejoiner74 wrote:
Argyll wrote:
Another sad indicment of privatisation and outsourcing.

Unfortunately local government workers cannot build or maintain property at anything like the speed,budget or quality of private contractors. There is no profit in public sector work for these huge building contractors now either tho so it was inevitable carillon were going to go bust.


But the public sector/ prisons/schools and hospitals shouldn't be for profit anyway.

On that model you have to answer to shareholders first to ensure they receive their dividend before the customer.


But the jobs are tendered for and works have to be done on budget as close as possible.
The local councils simply can’t do this as the workers have zero incentive to produce a certain amount of work or do this on time.
On Tuesday 4 of us stripped an old tiled roof,removed the felt and softboard,resheeted,felted and battoned it in the snow.
2 fife council vans were but 100 yards away and because it was snowing they wouldn’t get out the van and were paid all day. Now this goes on a thousand fold every day across the country. They still get full pay and yet no work is done. Who’s accountable for that? The public coughers are being drained silly with this sort of thing.



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:38 pm 
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steviejoiner74 wrote:
Argyll wrote:
steviejoiner74 wrote:
Argyll wrote:
Another sad indicment of privatisation and outsourcing.

Unfortunately local government workers cannot build or maintain property at anything like the speed,budget or quality of private contractors. There is no profit in public sector work for these huge building contractors now either tho so it was inevitable carillon were going to go bust.


But the public sector/ prisons/schools and hospitals shouldn't be for profit anyway.

On that model you have to answer to shareholders first to ensure they receive their dividend before the customer.


But the jobs are tendered for and works have to be done on budget as close as possible.
The local councils simply can’t do this as the workers have zero incentive to produce a certain amount of work or do this on time.
On Tuesday 4 of us stripped an old tiled roof,removed the felt and softboard,resheeted,felted and battoned it in the snow.
2 fife council vans were but 100 yards away and because it was snowing they wouldn’t get out the van and were paid all day. Now this goes on a thousand fold every day across the country. They still get full pay and yet no work is done. Who’s accountable for that? The public coughers are being drained silly with this sort of thing.
Spot on mate.

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