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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:32 pm 
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Hi, it's me again...after a month's break and still my floor tiles holding up I decided to do some more tiling. I wanted to perfect the method so did a bit more research. Heard mention of having to detergent before tiling which I hadnt done (before just used warm water and made sure no dust)...so got some washing up liquid, washed it off (though maybe not perfectly). And tiled...And then after 32 hours was grauting and realised despite almost 100% coverage the tile just moved, no adhesion whatsoever, just a perfectly flat layer of thinset on the back of the tile and another came up the same.

It's a huge difference from before where, despite my doubts they are that well stuck, the tiles atleast have survived drilling, moving furniture, foot traffic, beds etc for 2-4 months where as this new batch there is literally no bond whatsoever, the weight of the tile was all that stopped me lifting them up!

I'm trying to tile over this floor in the attachment- not a great porous surface like mortar but not shiny new ceramic either. I tried with some primer first which didnt appear to stick too well (though those tiles are still down 4 months later, no cracks in graut, etc) then just did straight onto it and thickened mixture a bit (also still down after 2 months, no problems).

Apart from the detergent this time I can also think of the following differences for this time:

Floor bone dry (before always had it a bit damp but internet says that can weaken the bond??)
Thinset bag opened 2 months ago and appeared very slightly lumpy, but on pouring fell into powder again, mixed normally, acted very normally on application,etc

So what do the experts think? It's the detergent, or floor beign dry, or old thinset? As I say difference is night and day. Also should I be priming the floor, half the internet says no, some say PVA/water others something else...

Appreciate your comments as ever. Thanks, Ben


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:38 pm 
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Do not under any circumstances use PVA as a primer.

Is that pic of the floor before or after ??

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:47 pm 
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You need a polymer modified adhesive to tile over old tiles. There's no "mechanical key" on smooth vinyl tiles so it can't grip it. Tiling over them wouldn't be best practice anyway.



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:31 am 
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wine~o wrote:
Do not under any circumstances use PVA as a primer.

Is that pic of the floor before or after ??


Thanks, understood re. pva

That's the old floor. It's dull and not that shiny but is not too porous (holds water a while when wet I'm putting 45cmx45cm standard ceramic tiles over it).


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:46 am 
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Cantseeitfrommyhouse wrote:
You need a polymer modified adhesive to tile over old tiles. There's no "mechanical key" on smooth vinyl tiles so it can't grip it. Tiling over them wouldn't be best practice anyway.


Thanks, the thinset I have is rather confusing in it's marketing as it has "many" specialities that seem mutually exclusive such as for exterior swimming pools and for plasterboard but I've read the technical data sheet though and it mentions that it can be used with any substrate that is cement based, plaster based or ceramic tile and it is especially flexible which they told me was good for floors in case there is some "give". It does say "Contains synthetic additives and resins to guarantee a better bond"...Is this another way for saying it is a polymer modified?

I understand it's not best practice but under the old floor is some mortar base with loose dust/crumbly sand layer which I would have no idea how to make a sturdy level base out of. The old tiles are also an inch thick so would need quite some mortar. I think it's because they are an inch thick and have no graut lines which is how these original tiles are still there 50 years later as they sort of just wedge each other in. In the whole flat (100sqm) there's 5 or 6 loose so I've removed those (in some cases I had to drill them til they split in half before removing them as they were so wedged in) and mortered in the holes, the others are generally level and well fixed.

I'm still at a loss as to why these tiles failed completely and the others are OK so can only guess the residue or old thinset - can these cause such an obvious difference? It's like the overspill on the areas before was difficult to chisel off the floor whereas this batch just crumbles off with a sturdy brush.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:24 pm 
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Problem with tiling over tiles is that the addy (not thinset... I think that's an American term) has nothing to grip to.

Best practice is remove all old tiling. Next best would be to score the surface of the existing tiles thoroughly using an old chisel or similar. You really need to remove quite a lot of the ceramic surface to get good adhesion.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:56 pm 
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What's the brand & spec of the adhesive?



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:28 am 
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Are you sure the old tiles are ceramic?
They look a bit like thermoplastic in the photo.



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:13 pm 
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toolbox wrote:
Are you sure the old tiles are ceramic?
They look a bit like thermoplastic in the photo.


There's no doubt they're linoleum/vinyl.



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:23 pm 
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Then that's why you cannot stick to them, bear in mind if thermoplastic "marley" tiles they can contain asbestos do not start sanding them.
Best solution is to lay laminate over them you can get laminate tiles that look very convincing are less slippery than ceramic and warmer.



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:53 pm 
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Thanks..looks like im getting to the bottom of the issue bit by bit, so theyre vinyl....at first i did think they may contain asbestos but was told as theyre really thick there's no chance...but as im in spain nobody takes asbestos seriously, maybe because it wasnt as widely used here as in uk. These tiles are in almost all old flats here and nobody seems concerned but i hope its not asbestos as ive certainly been disturbing it when getting rid of the skirting parts that are also made of this tile.

Im still at a loss as to why the others stuck and these ones havent. So is it just not possible to stick to vinyl reliably in any way? And theres no primer that can stick to it?

Tbh id happily take the advice and go with laminate if i hadnt stuck 45m2 down already which has stayed down. Just 25m to go so really would like to not switch now. Whats the best solution to give the best chance of a bond even if its not going to be that durable/strong?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:44 am 
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The tile adhesive I tend to use says that it's suitable on vinyl tiles but you need to use a high grip primer

Attachment:
Screenshot 2018-01-27 20.30.07.png
Screenshot 2018-01-27 20.30.07.png [ 232.97 KiB | Viewed 813 times ]


http://www.tilemasteradhesives.co.uk/pr ... ing-primer

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:05 am 
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Just a guess but if other rooms worked, maybe they have had some kind of silicone pollish applied, cleaning an area with a non abrasive solvent might be worth a go to see if that works.

Not familiar with non UK products but the majority of asbestos tiles are as you say quite thin.



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:09 pm 
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toolbox wrote:
Just a guess but if other rooms worked, maybe they have had some kind of silicone pollish applied, cleaning an area with a non abrasive solvent might be worth a go to see if that works.

Not familiar with non UK products but the majority of asbestos tiles are as you say quite thin.


These tiles have like a 3/4inch thick mortar back and then a quarter inch vinyl/platiccy layer, it's not the typical asbestos tile made of one layer.

As an update I pulled up 3 tiles easily and re-did them with slightly wetter thinset (before was on the thicker side which might not help with bonding to substrate?) after first priming it. Regrauted them in and so far no more problems - the others are under a sofa so maybe they'll just stay put anyway... :) As with the other rooms still not able to say it's worked....and when can one be sure...they've survived the first 2-4 months but is that enough time for graut to crack/them to work loose if they too aren't bonded very well??

Either way this is too stressful with all the not knowing so I'm not going to do any more until I have a primer and/or adhesive that mentions specifically vinyl tiles on the label. Although I can't get those products recommended in this thread here, I'll try and find something similar and not take the advice of the DIY store staff so seriously.

Thanks again for help/comments, I think I'm getting there slowly.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:31 pm 
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DarrenBa has the best solution for you. Not something I've ever tried.

It's normally the adhesive in marley tiles that contains asbestos.

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