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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:05 pm 
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As posted on TT I've just copy pasted as I'm painting at the moment and in a rush.

Please help me understand what the feck is going on with this as I'm currently in posetion of conflicting and part information which stops me in my tracks.

Quote:
Hi,
Yes another Part P question.

I read a post by BobProperty (on UHM) on Building Control where he mentioned (sorry Bob I know you post here and I'm speaking of you in the third person) Building Control have to certify the Part P of any electrical work.

Having just had the local authority Building Inspector allocated to my site call in he has said that I have to supply the Part P certificate for the electrical work I've done and plan to do, in our new ground floor extension, just the same as I have to supply Corgi Certificate.

I'm a competent (trained by my father, in 'old school' techniques) plumber and gas fitter but never commercially sold my trade. I have had my Gas Fire install checked and final connection made by the Corgi Reg. gas fitter.

My electrical work is, to my mind, of a good standard as I respect electricity as highly as gas as they are both KILLERS all electrical work is being done in accordance with regulations. And where I’m unsure I ask and follow the advice given.

I don't want to get off on the wrong foot with B/Control but neither do I want to be manipulated by them. We have planning permission and building control approval for the extension which included the internal works which I've started and building control informed.

Just where does Part P come into building control as they are hardly qualified to test and issue a Part P certificate.

This is new ground to me, I'll be investigating elsewhere too but as you guys are pretty much 'up on' a lot of this, I'd appreciate some help through the mire.

Thanks

Allan


Dead link removed - RichAndo

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 9:10 pm 
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OK - a couple of important points.

1) If you are building an extension, and Building Control are therefore engaged, you're going to have to decide how much you want to risk p*ssing them off by insisting that they do what they are supposed to do, and how much you want to keep them sweet. If you have paid their fee for them to do all the checking etc associated with the building work, then this also pays for them to do whatever testing and inspection they want to do to check compliance of the electrical aspects. They cannot force you to use a registered electrician, they cannot force you to arrange your own 3rd part inspection and testing, and they cannot force you to pay extra for them to subcontract the I&T to a 3rd party.

2) Not sure what you meant on the other site about whether it is "legislative or regulatory" - (it's both - it is a Building Regulation, which is a law), but this might be of use:

. . . . . Image

DIY Electrical work and the law

On January 1st 2005 legislation came into effect which brought electrical work in dwellings under the Building Regulations, and made it a controlled service. This amendment to the Building Regulations, known as "Part P", imposes safety requirements, and also classifies electrical installation work into two basic categories, notifiable and non-notifiable.

Essentially the distinction is between major work, or work in what are deemed high-risk areas such as kitchens, bathrooms and gardens, and minor work such as replacing switches or adding sockets to existing circuits. (NB to those with a knowledge of the IEE Wiring Regulations, the term "minor work" is used here in its generic sense rather than the meaning defined in the Wiring Regs.)

A very important and fundamental point to note is that DIY electrical work has not been outlawed. It has been brought within the remit of the Building Regulations and cannot be carried out as freely as it was before, and in many cases cannot be carried out without involving your local council, but you may still DIY.

Major work is classed as notifiable, i.e. it must be notified to your Local Authority's Building Control department (LABC). How this happens depends on who does it.

If the work is carried out by an electrician who is registered with one of the organisations who administer self-certification schemes, (sometimes referred to as "Competent Person" schemes) they carry out the work and report the details to their scheme organiser, who then notify the appropriate LABC that the work has taken place, and that it has been certified by the person who carried it out as being in compliance with the Building Regulations. You may be familiar with this method of operation if you have ever had windows replaced by a FENSA member.

If the work is carried out by someone who is not registered with one of the schemes, be they an electrician or another type of tradesman (e.g. kitchen fitter) who has chosen not to register, or a DIYer, then it must be notified to LABC in advance in the same way that any building work which requires their involvement is notified in advance. And just like when you are building an extension, or converting a loft, etc, there is a fee payable to LABC to cover their activities related to checking compliance with the Building Regulations. (But see "LABC Issues" below regarding this).

Another important point to note is that apart from a Building Inspector, nobody can certify someone else's work as being compliant with the Building Regulations. Unless arranged by or in cooperation with LABC, a 3rd party electrical inspection is of no value in terms of complying with the law.

The full text of the legislation can be found here: http://bit.ly/xwUZZg amended by the 2006 SI here: http://bit.ly/xlfZTp . It is worth making the effort to read and understand them, because there is a lot of misinformation on the Internet, some of it put out by organisations with a vested interest in pretending that DIY work is illegal, some of it by LABCs who have either misunderstood the legislation, or who are also attempting to mislead the public in order to reduce the amount of work notified to them by non-self-certifying people, some of it, surprisingly, by the DCLG themselves (The Office of the Deputy Prime Minister, predecessor to the Department for Communities and Local Government, was responsible for the legislation), and much of it on electrical advice and discussion fora like this one.

At the time of writing (April 2006), the following work was classed as not needing notification to LABC:

Code:
1. Work consisting of -

   (a) replacing any fixed electrical equipment which does
       not include the provision of—

       (i) any new fixed cabling; or

      (ii) a consumer unit;

   (b) replacing a damaged cable for a single circuit only;

   (c) re-fixing or replacing enclosures of existing
       installation components, where the circuit
       protective measures are unaffected;

   (d) providing mechanical protection to an existing
       fixed installation, where the circuit protective
       measures and current carrying capacity of
       conductors are unaffected by the increased thermal
       insulation.

   (e) installing or upgrading main or supplementary
       equipotential bonding;

   (f) in heating or cooling systems -


          (i) replacing control devices that utilise existing fixed
              control wiring or pneumatic pipes;

         (ii) replacing a distribution system output device;

        (iii) providing a valve or a pump;

         (iv) providing a damper or a fan;


   (g) in hot water service systems, providing a valve or a pump;

   (h) replacing an external door (where the door together
       with its frame has not more than 50% of its internal
       face area glazed);

   (i) in existing buildings other than dwellings, providing
       fixed internal lighting where no more than 100m² of
       the floor area of the building is to be served by the
       lighting.


2. Work which -

   (a) is not in a kitchen, or a special location,

   (b) does not involve work on a special installation, and

   (c) consists of -


         (i) adding light fittings and switches to an
             existing circuit or

        (ii) adding socket outlets and fused spurs to an
             existing ring or radial circuit.


3. Work on -

   (a) telephone wiring or extra-low voltage wiring for the
       purposes of communications, information technology,
       signalling, control and similar purposes, where the
       wiring is not in a special location;

   (b) equipment associated with the wiring referred to in
       sub-paragraph (a).

   (c) pre-fabricated equipment sets and associated flexible
       leads with integral plug and socket connections.


4. For the purposes of this Schedule -

   "kitchen" means a room or part of a room which contains a
   sink and food preparation facilities;

   "special installation" means an electric floor or ceiling
   heating system, an outdoor lighting or electric power
   installation, an electricity generator, or an extra-low
   voltage lighting system which is not a pre-assembled
   lighting set bearing the CE marking referred to in
   regulation 9 of the Electrical Equipment (Safety)
   Regulations 1994; and

   "special location" means a location within the limits of
   the relevant zones specified for a bath, a shower, a
   swimming or paddling pool or a hot air sauna in the
   Wiring Regulations, sixteenth edition, published by the
   Institution of Electrical Engineers and the British
   Standards Institution as BS 7671: 2001 and incorporating
   amendments 1 and 2.


Like any law, things can change, and you are urged to ensure that you make yourself familiar with the law as it stands now, not necessarily as it was when this document was written.

The starting point on the DCLG website for information related to Building Regulations is Dead link removed - RichAndo and a list of the relevant legislation can be found at Dead link removed - RichAndo .

It is in the nature of the Internet for sites to change, and it may well be that today, when you are reading this, the links above no longer work, and you will have to search for the pages you want.


Useful Information

On the DCLG website there are a number of "Approved Documents"
( Dead link removed - RichAndo ). These are not definitions of the law, nor do they tell you what you must, or must not, do. Instead they give guidance on ways in which the law can be satisfied. They do point out that you are not obliged to adopt any solution contained in them if you prefer to meet the requirements in another way, but that said they are useful as they contain common sense advice and often there is no good reason not to adopt the solutions they contain.

Approved Document P can be found here: Dead link removed - RichAndo



Technical Requirements

The technical requirements laid down by Part P are remarkably simple. They are:

P1 Reasonable provision shall be made in the design and installation of electrical installations in order to protect persons operating, maintaining or altering the installations from fire or injury.

It is worth noting however that they apply to all work, not just notifiable work, no matter who does it. So a DIYer adding a socket or a fused spur to a ring final circuit must work to the same technical standards as a registered electrician doing a complete rewire.

The biggest practical issue that arises is testing. To carry out testing of electrical circuits requires expertise and equipment, neither of which are likely to possessed by the average DIYer. So although Part P allows a DIYer to replace an entire circuit cable if it is damaged, without notification, it is arguable that he could not be sure that he had done it properly unless he carried out a series of tests on it, something he would probably be unable to do.


The IEE Wiring Regulations, aka BS 7671

Surprisingly, perhaps, Part P does not alter the status of the Wiring Regulations. They are still non-statutory, and there is still no legal requirement to adhere to them in domestic installations. This is a source of great discomfort to many electricians, and some of them will jump through hoops to try and prove that they are mandatory, but the fact remains that they are not.

HOWEVER, adherence to them is a very good way of ensuring that you meet the technical requirements of Part P, and you would need a very good reason, and a very good understanding of what you were doing, to decide to not adhere to them.


LABC Issues

As mentioned above, some LABCs are spreading misinformation, either by accident or design, about the status and acceptability of electrical work done by DIYers or other non-registered people.

These include:

1) Stating that such persons simply cannot carry out notifiable work, and that it must be done by registered electricians. The legislation referenced above, Statutory Instrument 2004 No. 3210 The Building (Amendment) (No.3) Regulations 2004 makes it quite clear that this is not the case. LABCs are not allowed to refuse to process Building Notices submitted by non-registered people.


2) Stating that work carried out by a non-registered person must be inspected and tested by someone who is registered, or who they regard as qualified. Again, there is no mention of this requirement in the statutory instrument.

The ODPM (as was) issued a circular to local authorities making it absolutely clear that they are not allowed to do this:

Dead link removed - RichAndo

Additionally, the new Dead link removed - RichAndo now explicitly says

1.26 The building control body may choose to
carry out the inspection and testing itself, or to
contract out some or all of the work to a specialist
body which will then carry out the work on its
behalf. Building control bodies will carry out the
necessary inspection and testing at their
expense, not at the householders' expense.


Unfortunately, many LABCs have been simply ignoring what the DCLG say, and persisting with their policy of requiring DIYers or other non-registered people to hire someone to inspect and test the work. The DCLG's position on this appears to be that if you are being told this by your LABC you should take them to court.

It will be interesting to see if LABCs change their behaviour given what the Approved Document now says…


3) Attempting to impose extra charges to cover the inspection and testing of work done by a non-registered person. An LABC may well elect to subcontract inspection and testing if they do not have the capacity to do it themselves, but they are not allowed to charge extra because of this – the cost to them of subcontracting must be borne by them

Individual local authorities co-ordinate their services regionally and nationally (and provide a range of national approval schemes) via LABC Services. ( Dead link removed - RichAndo ).

I recently posed LABC services the following question:

"My local Building Control dept has told me that because of staffing problems they are unable to inspect some building work, and will have to sub-contract it, and that I will therefore have to pay this cost on top of their fees.

Are they allowed to do this?
"

Their reply was:

"Building Regulation fees are set to a scale that embraces the whole scope of what may be necessary in respect of checking and approving the plans and inspecting the work. The input necessary can vary according to the circumstances of a specific scheme, but the fees are not variable due to this feature.

The local authority has a legal duty to carry out the Building Regulation function to a proper degree. This can also vary in extent according to the demands of any scheme and considerable discretion rests with the authority. However they are responsible to give a proper service within the fee and cannot charge extra for the reason you mention. Indeed if they failed to inspect yet still charged you might have a case for a refund
."

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Last edited by ban-all-sheds on Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 9:18 pm 
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That is a great post, but some of the links are dead.

I used to post links to government websites, then a week later they would be dead links, so I try not to link to goverment sites, unless it is their homepage etc.

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WOW :shock: Fantastic!

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ultimatehandyman wrote:
That is a great post, but some of the links are dead..

Sorry about that - links now corrected, I think...

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Result -
Following help from Ban All Sheds and Stoday (thanks again) letter to Building Control resulted in an immediate reply.

Building Control has contacted local Part P Qualified Electrical Contractor who will be calling me to arrange inspection and testing of the installs on Building Controls behalf.

Even after the letter they where continuing to ‘smoke screen’ and suggested I contact their recommended electrical contractor. The blows by blow aren’t necessary here but suffice to say, stand your ground and you will get a result!

Don't allow them to suggest 'you are adamant to do the work yourself' but that you are exercising your right to do so.

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Thought I would post something on the Building Standards system in Scotland.

Generally you don't need permission (caled a'warrant') from the council for most electrical work.
The exceptions are extensions, conversions new builds, and altrations.

Warrant reqired?
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I take it you installed the electrics yourself. You should have been PP registered to do so. PP is a self certification scheme, which means you can only certificate your own work, not those of others. However, to obtain a completion certificate for your extension you will require a PP certificate, so basically you need to get someone who is PP registered to come and test the installation to ensure it complies. Building control are just starting to wake up to PP (or they are in this part of the country anyway) and have prosecuted 3 residents of non PP houses that have recently had extensions (yep you are liable up to £50 per day) they have also prosecuted the contractor who installed the electrics.

Basically, you need to get a PP certificate ASAP.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:04 pm 
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Everything that ian says is wrong.

You don't need to be PP registered to do electrical work of any sort in a dwelling. (Assuming by 'PP registered' ian means 'registered with a self-certification body such as Napit).

A self-certified registered electrician can only certify his own work, so he can't certify yours.

I know of no prosecution of a householder, DIY or otherwise, as a result of not notifying notifyable work. Of course, a number of cowboys have been prosecuted and all of them have charged a householder for bad work as well as not notifying. It would be nice to have a link to a newspaper report if ian does know of a case where a householder has been prosecuted.


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everything Stoday says is right. :thumbright:

if you are part P registered as self certified you can test any work that requires testing.
however, they do not condone you regulary testing for somebody else and state such when you register with them. they say that you might get away with it once or twice but as you submit the notification it will show up that you are testing somebody elses work regualry.

again, all of this is a load of crap that hasn't been sorted out properly because any person can ring you up and ask for the installation to have it's "periodic" test done and a certificate provided. ie. selling their house.

here i go again, don't get me started on part P and the goverment's lack of correct methods.


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Don't get you started RA --- what about me?

Part P was supposed to cut out the cowboys. In 2½ years only a handful of cowboys have been prosecuted. It has cost each registered electrician £1,000 a year plus (taking account of time lost with assessments & admin costs etc.). If there are 60,000 electricians, that's £60m for half a dozen prosecutions. £10m per cowboy.

Same thing with Home Information Packs. Supposed to reduce costs speed house sales and reduce gazumping. Looks as though it will be another complete waste of money, will slow down sales increase costs and do nothing to reduce gazumping.

Not to mention the 2006 version of Part L which calls for a CO2 assessment adding costs for a micro gain.

I could go on

and on...


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lol Stoday, i was mainly refering to the fact it winds me up immensly too and that in another post somewhere i went off on a rant about part P.

i wish it has only cost me £1000 but unfortunately for me it was way in excess of that.
£1k is just the yearly costs, the initial is the real rip-off.

what i find most insulting is that they are basically saying your qualifications stand for absolutely nothing. the fact i did a 4-year apprenticeship and have over 20 years experience is irrellavent because a 19 year old lad that has just passed his exams but has litterally no experience can pay out and be just as qualified as me.

as far as i am aware, the only cowboys it has caught are not so much the ones doing bad jobs but more the ones that committed fraud by saying they were registered.

i too could go on and on but my moaning won't change a thing. :angryfire:


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ian wrote:
I take it you installed the electrics yourself. You should have been PP registered to do so. PP is a self certification scheme, which means you can only certificate your own work, not those of others. However, to obtain a completion certificate for your extension you will require a PP certificate, so basically you need to get someone who is PP registered to come and test the installation to ensure it complies. Building control are just starting to wake up to PP (or they are in this part of the country anyway) and have prosecuted 3 residents of non PP houses that have recently had extensions (yep you are liable up to £50 per day) they have also prosecuted the contractor who installed the electrics.

Basically, you need to get a PP certificate ASAP.


Hi Ian,
Don't go away, do come back.

It's all been said but my situation is simple. I am doing my own electrics as part of a Building Regulated Extension, I've had full piling, ground beam, drainage, floor slab, reinforcement, DPC, structural calcs and beam installation inspection, insulation and fire safety inspections and clearance by a Building Control Officer on site on a regular basis.

BC can be awkward, misleading, lying, sleeked pains in the ass but BLIND they are not! I'm the only 'Electrical Fitter' on site with BC 'blessing' :-) and authority to do whatever electrical wiring I need, require, want that will be fully checked and certified by BC once complete. Of course that all depends on me doing it right.

Oh I'm also the only plumber and gas fitter here.

If it was down to BC and scaremongering of the likes of your little story or the stuff spouted by others on this forum I wouldn't be doing it.

But thanks to Stoday, ban-all-sheds, sparkydude, UHM and many others on here and other forums I have successfully argued my right to do the work myself.

Thanks to all who have and still do keep me right. :thumbright:

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Sorry that was explained badly. You are quite right you do not have to be PP registered to undertake work in a dwelling, however you do need to be competent to do so. (EAW regs and BS7671)
The building regs are initially administered by the Building Control under which all proposed electrical installation work in dwellings has to be notified to a building control body before work commences, except where:
§ the proposed work is undertaken by a contractor authorised to self-certify compliance on completion of the work (known as a Prescribed Competent Person this can be a an individual or company)
§ the proposed work is minor, and it is not in a kitchen or special location
House owners requiring electrical installation work which requires a building regulations certificate can use a Registered Contractor that employs a Qualified Supervisor. These individuals or company are registered with an approved scheme provider such as NAPIT or NICEIC and have the ability and knowledge of the building regs to complete the work according to PP. Thereafter Self Certify that the installation does comply.
On the issue of contractors certifying other work. The Building Regs clearly states that you only certify your own work, and not that of other contactors. Indeed NICEIC about 18 months ago I received a warning letter form NIC after telling them I certified someone else’s work…..mistake (despite inspecting it after 1st fix and knew where the cables were run, etc) The fact that building control ask someone to inspect work retrospectively is due lack of detailed knowledge of PP, there attitude that they believe that people installing electrics (where they need to be notified) should be registered with an approved scheme provider and most building control officers have mechanical or building background and not electrical. Basically they don’t have the knowledge or know how to police PP.
Someone, mentioned Periodic Inspection’s, these are obviously different to certification made under PP, periodic inspections generally involve inspection of the entire property, can be and nearly always done retrospectively and no need to inform building control.
Basically, what I am saying is that, unless you are competent (not necessary an electrician) have knowledge of BS7671, and PP and installed the electrics yourself you cannot strictly certify the installation complies.
Once I find the links to newspaper, which states that the local council has prosecuted 3 homeowners and contractors for breach of PP I will attach a link.

I agree with someone else regarding qualification, someone who has done a weeks course, taken a 20 question exam could register with a scheme provider and certify electrical work. i also did a 4year apprenticeship and have 31 years experience and ran my own business for the last 20. Qualifications,who needs them?


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Quote:
Basically, what I am saying is that, unless you are competent (not necessary an electrician) have knowledge of BS7671, and PP and installed the electrics yourself you cannot strictly certify the installation complies.


Now there lies the dilemma?

Am I competent? (I install Gas Appliances Fires and CH Boilers that are Corgi Approved (but I'm not Corgi Registered) and Plumbing from complete bathroom refits to changing taps and washers).

What knowledge of BS7671?

What understanding of Part P?

I've installed myself (or at least in the throws of) so after establishing the above I can certify?

I'm not registered with any recognised body. So how far down the certification route can I go?

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