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mike delta
Junior Member
Joined: 15 Sep 2008
Posts: 17
Location: West Yorkshire
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 Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 4:36 pm Post subject: BS7671 2008/Meter Tails |
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Hi Guys,
Comments welcome on this please.
I was discussing with my mate the pros & cons of Part P & BS7671 2008 and the requirements when carrying out notifiable work.
My interpretation of the following is this:
If for example you change the fuse board on an existing installation and if the existing meter tails are 16mm there is no requirement to change these to 25mm. Now I normally change them as a matter of course. However, the way I see it, there is no requirement to do so. As long as the installation is safe and is not left in a condition (in terms of safety) worse than it was before you started work on it then all the requirements have been met.
My mate disagrees.
I also stipulated the same where main bonding is concerned. Example. If the main bonding is of the required size (lets say 16mm) but in the old colour of continuos green instead of green yellow, then there is no requirement to change it just for the sake of changing it. All it requires is the appropriate sticky labels about old and new colours. Of course my mate said I was talking ****cks. So I have a pint hanging on this. Who is correct?
We ended up discussing if a ceiling is dropped then it is classed as a refurb so a rewire would have to include Part M. No it doesn't; but I won't go into that one at the moment.
Mike. |
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IDontBelieveIt
Senior Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2008
Posts: 934
Location: North Hampshire
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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I am sorry to say that I rather think you have just lost a pint.
The regs are not retrospective - UNTIL a change is made to the installation.
In making any change(s) it is the competent persons responsibility that it ALL meets current regulations and if not to state on the EIC/MW where it deviates.
So things like single green cpc sleeves are not in compliant and if I recall the tails have to be upgraded to 25 mm and following that so does the main earth need upgrading to be 'half' that which means upgrading to 16 mm green/yellow.
And, of course, changing the CU comes under Part-P so it all needs filing with the LABC.
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IDontBelieveIt
Senior Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2008
Posts: 934
Location: North Hampshire
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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By the way. It may not state within BS7671/2008 that tails MUST be 25 mm and main earth be 16 mm but this area comes under the DNO and they will demand that tails are 25 mm and main earth is at lest 16 mm. Indeed have known some DNO's walk away because from an installation connection because the main bonds (gas and water are 'only' 10 mm!!)
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Rich-Ando
Approved Electrician
Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 2481
Location: Derby, Derbyshire
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| the bad thing about all of that is that the DNO don't give a toss about their cables being 16mm and in a case i found 2 weeks ago, they recently reconnected rubber tails to the meter. |
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IDontBelieveIt
Senior Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2008
Posts: 934
Location: North Hampshire
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:38 am Post subject: |
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Half the DNO engineers don't know what tails are Rich!!
I have even been to a 4-bedroom detached house where the 'tails' was a short length of 2.5 t/e!! The only thing that saved the place was that a little old spinsters lived there alone and the largest consumer appliance she has was an electric kettle.
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Rich-Ando
Approved Electrician
Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 2481
Location: Derby, Derbyshire
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| IDontBelieveIt wrote: |
Half the DNO engineers don't know what tails are Rich!!
I have even been to a 4-bedroom detached house where the 'tails' was a short length of 2.5 t/e!! The only thing that saved the place was that a little old spinsters lived there alone and the largest consumer appliance she has was an electric kettle. |
you probably don't actually know half the truth about it.
i used to work for east midlands electricity years ago. i knew the departments internally and i know 100% that the meter fitters were only "semi-skilled" workmen.
now doesn't that just make a mockery of Part P for us fitting new CU's? |
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Steve the Gas
Senior Member
Joined: 30 May 2008
Posts: 519
Location: Notts/Derbys
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| Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:45 am Post subject: |
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IMO you could train a monkey to change meters but not all the real sparky stuff.
Time to come clean 
I should know - I train 'em - both electricity and gas  |
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mike delta
Junior Member
Joined: 15 Sep 2008
Posts: 17
Location: West Yorkshire
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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Well Guys,
I've reluctantly eaten humble pie on this one and bought my mate a pint. However, I not totally convinced I'm wrong. I got in touch with the LBC and in particular the guy who deals with electrical. Now he is known for his ability to recite the regs off by heart and he can be a real pain in the ass. Basically though on this one he was a bit non committal and stated that every job is judged on its own merits. I even chucked this one at him; "how come I'm expected to upgrade the tails from 16mm to 25mm yet the supplier has no obligation to do the same". Reaction? no comment.
So there we have it. There is no clear indication in the regs. If the supplier provided 16mil tails on the original installation (pre 17th ed) all well and good. However, if I change the cu at a later date I'm expected to upgrade the tails to 25mil but the supplier has no obligation to follow suite. Hence my original argument about there being no justifiable reason for upgrading to 25mil when changing out the cu. Same with the main earth. If the original is 16mil but in green insulation from the supply head to the cu, why change it if the only reason is because of the insulation colour especially when we put stickers on the cu explaining that there is a mixture of old and new colours.
Anyhow, I've failed to convince anyone so I have to back down gracefully
Mike |
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Rich-Ando
Approved Electrician
Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 2481
Location: Derby, Derbyshire
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:09 am Post subject: |
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just for info for you Mike, some others on here such as Stods may know this but i would hazard a guess nobody else does: -
the actual original reason for 25mm tails being specified was down to the DNO years and years ago. they actually found that when using 16mm tails that you could easily cram another cable behind the 16mm tail. when the meter reader came it was so neat that he couldn't see the hidden cable and so the meter fiddling was not noticed.
as employees we were told to bind every 16mm tail end with copper because supplying 25mm tails was too costly. that way, there wasn't a chance of getting two cables in one meter terminal. they wouldn't change the meters because 25mm hole size was required for business tariff on 200A supplies.
so i am talking about 20+ years ago and that is what we knew back then, the arguments you have over it now are derived from a fiddling reason. |
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