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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:21 pm 
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Just thought I'd add this - to sort of encourage people whio want to design their own stuff to go and have a play with The Sagulator:

mahoak wrote:
And 18mm thick MDF would not need any extra support because it will not sag despite some of the shelves being up to 1300mm long.

Actually if my drawings are correct the maximum length would be 1064mm (at least on my version - bottom shelf upper middle cabinet) and even then there would be some support as I mentioned glueing and stapling the backs onto the rear of the shelves and uprights which confers an extra amount of rigidity and support. BTW, just checked that with Sagulator and it calculates a 2.31mm sag with a 30kg load in 18mm MDF-MD (medium density MDF - or the "ordinary stuff"). Go up to 22mm and that sag reduces to 1.27mm, whilst with 25mm it reduces to 0.86mm. If the load reduces to 25kg deflection goes down to 1.93, 1.06 and 0.72mm respectively for 18, 22 and 25mm. The target figure is 1.7mm/m or 1.81mm in total on a 1064mm long shelf - so just how heavy is the stuff you want to load this with?

mahoak wrote:
I have looked more in depth into the Domino system that you mentioned and I have to say that it looks brilliant. However, I nearly choked when I saw the price of the Festool machine (£600+).

Yes, they are brilliant - want to frighten yourself a bit more? Then take a look at the big Domino, the DF700XL. I have one. Awesome piece of kit but horrendously expensive. But I can sort of justify it in the same way many people can justify £1k Apple phones..... They are a big ask and TBH I only included them for the sake of completeness for anyone finding this thread in the future. There are other ways to achieve a similar (i.e klust as effective in the main) result, such as dowels (cheap dowelling jig, drill, twist bit) or biscuits (biscuit jointer). It's worth knowing that with biscuits there is the possibility of using KD and click-together assembly fastenings instead of the glued biscuits. Take a look at Knapp Verbinder for details - they now have a UK distributor once more, Quest. What I'm not saying is that you NEED a Domino or a biscuit jointer - you don't and in any case with a bit of ingenuity you can achieve the pretty much same result with a plunge router and some home made jigs (albeit a tad slower - maybe I should write that up one day) - but I think it can be useful to know what is available out there

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Last edited by Job and Knock on Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:35 pm 
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big-all I agree with you and have every intention to take your advice.

FWIW I am truly grateful to you guys for taking the time to offer your advice and support (and for your patience). By nature I tend to function a lot better once I have a clear idea in my mind about what's happening at every stage which might explain all the questons I keep asking. :oops: :-)

I am conscious of my limitations both in skills and in tools. I have bought several joinery books (quite a few of those J&K mentioned above too) so that combined with a bit of research will start to build up my theoretical knowledge. Small projects will hopefully start to improve my skills. In terms of tools I have the most of the basic ones (drill, impact, plunge saw, multitool, router, various handsaws, various squares and so on). I can buy other tools as and when needed but I doubt I would be able to buy a lot of expensive substantial stuff. Luckily I do have time on my side so I can afford to take things slowly with this project. I realise that it is a big project in size however the fact that is broken down in smaller units and thanks to the guidance I am getting here means that I have a good chance to complete it. If I make a small mistake here and there I would be able to replace the plank of wood without incurring too much loss.

Job and Knock wrote:
Yes, I completely agree. I'd also add a couple of other things - whenever you try out something new it's worthwhile actually doing a "test build" of the specific features that you intend to use. that way you gain hands on experience at very little cost (and maybe you could also make some useful stuff for elsewhere in the house, or for relatives).

On a lighter note a thought occurred to me about the fold away cutting bench top - it will work well for long rips, but for narrow crosscuts or diagonal cuts it doesn't offer sufficient support so a sacrificial sheet will need to be deployed on top of it to ensure sufficient material support under the rail. Just a thought.


In the case of this project the area that I feel I am more likely to make mistakes is the doweling and screwing together so I intend to have several tirals in smaller scale in order to get the grasp of it. Of course I will also have several trials with the plunge saw as well in order to get used to it as well.

And definitely taken on board the advice of sacrificial sheet to be deployed on top of the portable cutting table and will use one.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:44 pm 
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Job and Knock wrote:
Just thought I'd add this - to sort of encourage people whio want to design their own stuff to go and have a play with The Sagulator:

Actually if my drawings are correct the maximum length would be 1064mm (at least on my version - bottom shelf upper middle cabinet) and even then there would be some support as I mentioned glueing and stapling the backs onto the rear of the shelves and uprights which confers an extra amount of rigidity and support....- so just how heavy is the stuff you want to load this with?

There are other ways to achieve a similar result, such as dowels (cheap dowelling jig, drill, twist bit) or biscuits (biscuit jointer). It's worth knowing that with biscuits there is the possibility of using KD and click-together assembly fastenings instead of the glued biscuits. Take a look at Knapp Verbinder for details - they now have a UK distributor once more, Quest


I tried the Sagulator and it is quite a decent calculator. :thumbright:

Ah right, my fault. I would need to adjust accordingly the sizes of the upper units because the bottom shelf on the upper middle cabinet needs to be 1300mm internally. It will only carry 2-3 Kg in weight and the shelves above it will carry a similar weight load too so it wont be under any stress. It is the side units that will carry most of the weight (books, etc) and from what the Sagulator showed me the weight is well within the limits. So all should be ok.

Dowels sound good to me and I will have a look at the link you provided as well. I assume if I went for the dowel option a drill stand would come in handy? Something like this https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/clarke- ... with-vice/


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:52 pm 
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Job and Knock wrote:
with a bit of ingenuity you can achieve the pretty much same result with a plunge router and some home made jigs (albeit a tad slower - maybe I should write that up one day)


That would be quite a useful bit of info for a lot of people (me included). The more I learn about routers the more I realise what a great versatile tool they are (I am not surprised that you have a fleet of them :mrgreen: ). It certainly is a tool that I want to practice using more and learn more about.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:35 am 
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mahoak wrote:
big-all I agree with you and have every intention to take your advice.

FWIW I am truly grateful to you guys for taking the time to offer your advice and support (and for your patience). By nature I tend to function a lot better once I have a clear idea in my mind about what's happening at every stage which might explain all the questons I keep asking. :oops: :-)

I am conscious of my limitations both in skills and in tools. I have bought several joinery books (quite a few of those J&K mentioned above too) so that combined with a bit of research will start to build up my theoretical knowledge. Small projects will hopefully start to improve my skills. In terms of tools I have the most of the basic ones (drill, impact, plunge saw, multitool, router, various handsaws, various squares and so on). I can buy other tools as and when needed but I doubt I would be able to buy a lot of expensive substantial stuff. Luckily I do have time on my side so I can afford to take things slowly with this project. I realise that it is a big project in size however the fact that is broken down in smaller units and thanks to the guidance I am getting here means that I have a good chance to complete it. If I make a small mistake here and there I would be able to replace the plank of wood without incurring too much loss.

Job and Knock wrote:
Yes, I completely agree. I'd also add a couple of other things - whenever you try out something new it's worthwhile actually doing a "test build" of the specific features that you intend to use. that way you gain hands on experience at very little cost (and maybe you could also make some useful stuff for elsewhere in the house, or for relatives).

On a lighter note a thought occurred to me about the fold away cutting bench top - it will work well for long rips, but for narrow crosscuts or diagonal cuts it doesn't offer sufficient support so a sacrificial sheet will need to be deployed on top of it to ensure sufficient material support under the rail. Just a thought.


In the case of this project the area that I feel I am more likely to make mistakes is the doweling and screwing together so I intend to have several tirals in smaller scale in order to get the grasp of it. Of course I will also have several trials with the plunge saw as well in order to get used to it as well.

And definitely taken on board the advice of sacrificial sheet to be deployed on top of the portable cutting table and will use one.


please please please take all comments as helpful as they are meant as such :lol: :lol:
its more to do with information overload if have too much to take in you will struggle to take in any information at all
you need to concentrait on one area or point at a time to take things in

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:53 pm 
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I tried to view this project through Mahoak's level of skills and tool availability and the wonderful design by J&K would be a good way to build. But...... I do feel this is presenting as too big a task for a relative beginner. For this reason I would put forward an idea to adapt the process from a monocoque to a modular build. (someone may have said this already but I have not read it all)

What I mean is dividing up the unit into smaller units that can be made, painted and then brought in for final assembly. By careful thought on potential loads the individual components can be sized correctly to suit. If a box is messed up it is not the end of the world to do it again. It will be much easier to understand how each unit is made and when assembled all the facings can be added to make it look a whole. The doubling of adjacent box walls will only strengthen the whole and, although it will add to the weight, it does not really matter as this is a permanent fixture.

I would use MDF to keep costs down and splash out on the facing material if you desired.

At the end of the day Mahoak needs to be confident that it will all work well for him and starting out on the easiest box will help to get it all straight in his mind.

Hope this helps

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:54 pm 
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dewaltdisney wrote:
For this reason I would put forward an idea to adapt the process from a monocoque to a modular build. (someone may have said this already but I have not read it all)

Job and Knock wrote:
I'd suggest, therefore, that on the main unit you consider building the item as a plinth, one or two lower units and then three separate upper modules which can be joined together in-situ. Any gapping around the outside would be dealt with by a 10 to 20mm scribe strip. Well, that's the sort of approach I'd take.

Yes. Someone already has :roll:

And BTW it's not my design at all. All I did was to take the sketch provided by the OP and turn it into a series of construction components to his dimensions. As you say the individual elements are far easier to make and finish and joints can be covered with cappings (also in the design above, BTW) The five individual carcass elements look vaguely like these (there is a separate plinth but I haven't included that):

Attachment:
Book Case Exploded Structure Rough 001_01.JPG
Book Case Exploded Structure Rough 001_01.JPG [ 54.68 KiB | Viewed 125 times ]

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:37 pm 
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DWD the whole thing is broken down into 5 smaller units (2 at the bottom and 3 at the top). Edit: j&k beat me to it with previous post. Unless you are suggesting that it is broken down into smaller units, a bit like Mogens Koch's modular system? In which case it would be quite difficult because the design of this unit is rather irregular. I suppose the two upper side units can be broken down into two units but the centre upper unit is impossible due to the irregular design. Unless I change the design that is. But then again breaking it down into smaller units may disturb the clean modern look that j&k has been trying to preserve.

Following big-all's very wise suggestion for a noob like me I am breaking down the information part by part. So to recap:

Working bench/table:

I have bought a pair of Stanley folding saw horses. They get very good reviews on the net and seem to be quite sturdy. And they are foldable so they can be put away after the job is done.
https://www.angliatoolcentre.co.uk/stan ... XgEALw_wcB

I will make a folding frame to go on top of them (like the guy in the youtube video I posted a page back. I am thinking in the region of 1400mm x 1000mm. Does this sound good? Can I build it using 3x2 or do I need to use the sturdier 4x2 battons?
On top of the folding frame I will use a sacrificial sheet.

Plinth:

Built using 3x2 PSE based on the design J&K posted in page 2.
Dimensions 3280mm(W) x 340mm(D) x 70mm(H)
I assume the plinth can be just screwed together rather than using dowels or any sort of joints?

Bottom two cupboards:

Made with 18mm MDF.
Each of the cupboards are going to be 1640mm(W) x 840mm(H) x 340mm(D).
Inside the cupboards will be separated by a vertical panel which will be in the middle. This will add rigidity considering the overall length of these cupboards and the weight that will be placed on top of them. Each cupboard will have adjustable shelves so that they can be used as shoe storage. Each cupboard will also have double doors at the front.
The cupboards will be put together using screws and dowels.

The Middle upper shelf:

Made with 18mm MDF.
This is the largest part of the unit and it will measure 1340mm(W) x 1480mm(H) x 340mm(D).

The two upper side units:

Made with 18mm MDF.
Each unit will measure 970mm(W) x 1480mm(H) x 340mm(D).

Considerations:

The depth of the wall is 360mm however I am allowing for: 1) a back board of 12mm to be attached at the back to increasse strength, 2) the remaining 8mm will compensate for any small imperfections in the plumb of the wall.

The measurements do take into consideration and include the 18mm width of the boards.

The weight on the shelves will be manageable (according to the Sagulator results). Most of the shelves will carry decorations which won't be heavy.

None of the sides of any of the units will be seen so there's no issues of screws being seen.

I think I have included everything however if I havent I will keep adding as we go along. I was going to put this recap on the first post of this thread for the sake of simplicity but this forum does not allow for previous posts to be edited after an hour or so has passed.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:59 pm 
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mahoak wrote:
I will make a folding frame to go on top of them (like the guy in the youtube video I posted a page back. I am thinking in the region of 1400mm x 1000mm. Does this sound good? Can I build it using 3x2 or do I need to use the sturdier 4x2 battons?

A bit too small, I'm afraid - for an 8 x 4ft sheet you really need something like 7 x 3ft - or 2100 x 900mm approx. otherwise the overhang will start to droop. I'd recommend using the 3 x 2 long rails set vertically rather than horizontally for stiffness and rigidity

mahoak wrote:
Plinth: - Built using 3x2 PSE based on the design J&K posted in page 2.
Dimensions 3280mm(W) x 340mm(D) x 70mm(H)
I assume the plinth can be just screwed together rather than using dowels or any sort of joints

Main things to be sure of are that you have allowed for the skirting (if any), that it isn't hard against the walls - so a 5 to 10mm gap at each end, and that you are allowing for it to be set-back a bit from the front edge of the bottom cabinets (say 30mm or so). Because it is softwood and won't be seen (a 12mm MDF plinth cover/scribe strip is needed to cover this as MDF paints up far better) you can just drill/countersink and screw the plinth frame together - something like 5.0 x 90 ~ 100mm screws (#10 x 3-1/2 to 4in in old money) will be right, two screws diagonally apart per joint and pulled up firmly for which you will need a perfectly flat surface. Don't skimp on this - get yourself some proper joinery grade Swedish redwood PSE which is straight and true - you need it all to be right because everything depends on the plinth being level and straight. To level it up you'll need either a laser or a couple of reasonable spirit level, some home made hardwood or softwood wedges, some angle brackets and screws, plugs, etc to fix it down to the floor.

A note about the MDF cover: probably best made in two pieces with the centre joint "V-ed" so that it can be disguised when it comes to painting.

mahoak wrote:
Bottom two cupboards: - Inside the cupboards will be separated by a vertical panel which will be in the middle. This will add rigidity considering the overall length of these cupboards and the weight that will be placed on top of them. Each cupboard will have adjustable shelves so that they can be used as shoe storage. Each cupboard will also have double doors at the front.

Have you considered how you are going to provide the adjustable shelves? Are you looking for built-in hardware, free standing hardware or even a pegs and rows of holes up the sides of the cabinet solution? What type of doors are you considering? Laid-on or inset? Do you want the doors to be flush with the face of the upper cabinets or are you considering a set-back of the upper cabinets? What type of hinges and handles/latches are you considering? You could go minimalist and have no handles, just sprung touch latches which might be in keeping with the rest of your concept. And finally if there are doors going on the front have you not considered the possibility of running something like a 3 x 2 PSE batten side to side at the top of both cabinets (front and rear) which could be hidden at the front by adding a 12mm MDF fascia to to front, but behind the doors:
Attachment:
Book Case Lower Cabinets Method for Strengthening 001_01.JPG
Book Case Lower Cabinets Method for Strengthening 001_01.JPG [ 56.94 KiB | Viewed 110 times ]

Above: Using a pair of 3 x 2 PSE softwood battens (brown) hidden behind a 12mm MDF fascia (shown only in part, green). The weight from above would be transmitted down to the plinth through a combination of the gable panels and the attached rear skin panel. The top has been removed for clarity

mahoak wrote:
None of the sides of any of the units will be seen so there's no issues of screws being seen.

Yes, but remember that the ends of the shelves in the upper cabinets will need to be screwed, so you'll have to sink the screw heads under and then fill and sand where those shelf ends are not into an end panel. Not an issue as when properly done the filled screw head is not visible after you've painted the units

Final and very important point. Before starting this you do need to work out the sizes of every component and build a cutting list and an ironmongery schedule. That way, with a spread sheet you can cost the job properly as well as having an absolute list of everything you require. From the cutting list it is then possible to develop breaking-down sheets for dealing with the sheet materials in the most efficient way (you can do this with software, I've used it in the past for speed and volume, but millimetre squared graph paper isn't a bad substitute). Boring, I know, but having a cut list sometimes throws up anomalies

Sorry, more questions, I know.... but you are getting there!

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:47 am 
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Thank you for pointing those areas out j&k.

So the table will be 2100mmx900mm. Composed of 3x2 PSE, 2 x 2100mm battons and 5 x 900mm battons attached together with something like a coach bolt and nut.

Plinth, joinery grade Swedish redwood PSE 3x2, 100mm screws, 2 per joint, screws going in diagonally. To level it in place got a decent set of JCB spirit levels (1800mm, 1200mm, 600mm, 300mm)

For the bottom cabinets, I'll probably go down the route of pegs and rows of holes on the sides in order to keep things simple. Got lots of pegs as well which I can reuse. The idea of 3x2 battens sounds perfect and definitely doing that. In terms of doors I thought it would be a good opportunity for me to practice bridle joints so perhaps a door which has a simple frame connected via bridle joints and tongue and groove pieces filling the inside. The door knobs will be simplistic and likely in knurled solid brass https://www.busterandpunch.com/hardware/furniture-knobs The rest of my light fittings, switches, etc are from the same brand so there will be some visual continuity.

The doors will be laid on. Now in terms of hinges to use I am not quite sure yet and will very likely get a joiner to hang them because I tend to struggle when it comes to hinges.

In terms of calculattions, my plan is to use mm squared graph paper in order to draw each of the 5 units and to calculate everything to the mm. My brain deals very well with maths and technical drawing so that will be an enjoyable task. Then I will make a list of every panel I need (and how many) and then based on that will calculate the best way to cut them out of a sheet so there's least possible wastage.

Can I ask, considering that I am using a plunge saw which is very precise does this mean that I dont need to make an allowance of a few mm for the thickness of the blade?

Also, in terms of the upper panels I needed to clarify a few things if I may: 1) when I am screwing the different parts of the upper panels together is there some sort of clamp that would keep the parts in place in order to ensure that I maintain the 90 degree angles? 2) What size screws do I use for screwing the panels together? And what type of screw is best? 3) Do I predrill and if so what size drill do I use? 4) Do I use dowels as well as screws? If so would one dowel in each corner be good enough or do I need to use more?


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mahoak wrote:
The doors will be laid on. Now in terms of hinges to use I am not quite sure yet and will very likely get a joiner to hang them because I tend to struggle when it comes to hinges.

If the doors are laid on that tends to point you in the direction of using some form of concealed hinge like they do in kitchens. Sounds like the type of door you want is a Shaker style door.

mahoak wrote:
Can I ask, considering that I am using a plunge saw which is very precise does this mean that I dont need to make an allowance of a few mm for the thickness of the blade?

The blade still has a kerf (2.2mm in this instance) which has to be allowed for. It's normal to allow 4 to 5mm for that to give a bit of extra coverage for ant dust cuts needed (e.g to allow for outside edge damage, etc)

mahoak wrote:
1) when I am screwing the different parts of the upper panels together is there some sort of clamp that would keep the parts in place in order to ensure that I maintain the 90 degree angles?

There is, but the way I do it is to drill two holes (one at each end of the components) for a dowel or Domino which is then used to locate the components being joined

mahoak wrote:
2) What size screws do I use for screwing the panels together? And what type of screw is best?

Black carcass screws, 1-1/4in

mahoak wrote:
3) Do I predrill and if so what size drill do I use?

Pilot drilling is very necessary. Trend Snappy SNSAP/CS/4MM or SNAP/CS/4MMTC or SNAP/CS/10 or SNAP/CS/10TC (only one required BTW). Get a couple of spare pilot drill bits (which can be ordinary HSS twist bits)

mahoak wrote:
4) Do I use dowels as well as screws? If so would one dowel in each corner be good enough or do I need to use more?

See above

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Shaker style is the one that I was referring. Shoud I make the stiles and rails of each door to match the width of the cappings in the upper shelves? Using Swedish joinery grade Redwood? Or do the rails and stiles need to be a certain width in order to have visual effect?

The doors would be quite large (840mm x 800mm) so I assume the lighter they are the better? And if this is the case would something like 6mm plywood be the best(lighter) material to use for the door panels?


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mahoak wrote:
Shaker style is the one that I was referring. Should I make the stiles and rails of each door to match the width of the cappings in the upper shelves? Using Swedish joinery grade Redwood? Or do the rails and stiles need to be a certain width in order to have visual effect?

In terms of the design of the doors as this isn't a traditional piece the rules don't really hold. I was half wondering whether or not 22mm mdf slab doors with a pattern routed-in (with a veining cutter) to mimic or reflect the design of centre upper unit might work or not, Again this is where Sketch-up could be very handy. As the rest of the units are in painted MDF I can't see much advantage, if any, of going to softwood for the doors. Personally I'd keep it in MDF especially as MDF paints out better

mahoak wrote:
The doors would be quite large (840mm x 800mm) so I assume the lighter they are the better? And if this is the case would something like 6mm plywood be the best(lighter) material to use for the door panels?

Softwood would be marginally lighter, but not by a significant amount. You'd also need to joint it properly as opposed to much simpler approaches which MDF makes possible. A lot of effort for little return at this stage I fear

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as an aside 800x840 can be quite waste full with a 1/3 going to waste on sheet material
aiming 400 and 600s or any variation that will fit into 2400 and 1200
and note i dont include 40 and 20mm as you can use that for the blade thickness 2 or 3 times and uniforming passes over a table saw

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:33 am 
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big-all thank you for pointing that out. I think I might go the route of using MDF (routed with a pattern) for the doors. That way I can plan the bes way to cut each sheet which would minimise waste.


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