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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:12 pm 
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thats only 400mm wide so £120 for the same size as an 8x4sheet

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:43 am 
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I think that you are now getting into the design part of the process - for that I find that rough sketches, then a session on Sketch-Up really help me to define what I'm going to build before I get to the cutting list stage. Sometimes a scale model in cardboard and tape assists as well. The drawing doesn't have to be detailed at this stage but it can help me get some idea of where I'm going with the project in terms of look and feel before I think about the detail of joints, materials, etc (although I will bear those in mind from the get go). An example of that can be seen in this block graphic of part of a proposed kitchen replacement where the kitchen is tiny but a lot of cupboard storage at high level is required, and just for good measure there's a staircase and a cellar to cope with in there:

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and here's an example of working-out the details (two different options) for cupboard hangers which allowed me to see if a certain type of hanger will work with long rails (as it happens I think it won't). For this job I'm considering a mix of bought-in standard cabinets and a few bepokes:

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Kitchen Cabinet Prototype 001_01.JPG
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I don't normally add colours or textures but in this case I think it's made understanding the issues far easier for me.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:23 pm 
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Here's a preliminary sketch that I have done. It is to scale as well.
Image

And here's my first attempt at using SketchUp (still have a lot to learn because I've never used it before). Unfortunately I couldnt make the top shelve units look 3D.
Image

Image

In this sketchup picture I have used colour in order to show the 7 different units that will make the whole thing up. The blue column is the wall column which separates the units. In terms of scale the larger part to the left of the wall is 3.3m wide, 2.4m high and 36cm deep. The unit to the right is 1m wide x 2.4m high x 32cm deep. The cupboards at the bottom will be 94cm high. The horizontal shelves are generally 40cm high and the vertical shelves are 30cm wide. Hope that gives an idea in terms of size. I am hoping that the irregular construction of the top parts will make the units structurally stronger. I will of course cut a rebate to the back of each of the 7 parts so that I can fit a sheet of ply in order to add to the structural strength.
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What do you guys think so far?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:40 pm 
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are you allowing for the thickness off the saw blade ??
this can be around 1.2-3.5mm or around 20mm on 6 cuts
if you have a table saw with enough width capacity its sometimes easier if you find accuracy difficult to cut to around 2mm oversize with a circular or track saw then pass them all through the table saw to make them uniform

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:59 pm 
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That's a heck of a lot of joints and a big ask in terms of cutting accuracy - do you have facilities to cut/trim materials? Asking because I doubt that B&Q will be able to deliver the accuracy you will absolutely need for a project such as this.

Secondly, the size; it will be all but impossible to assemble something like that in a "one-er" and get it into position (weight and height). Normally to get something like this into place you assemble it flat on its' back then lift it up to its' final position - for that you'd need to make an allowance at the top. It's simply too big for that approach

You've made no provision for a plinth at the bottom (which will need to be levelled). I suggest that you consider adding a shallow plinth at the bottom of the unit as a separate piece which can be levelled-up before the rest of the units are added (because floors aren't always level). Having a physically separate plinth will make the installation a bit easier on you as you will be starting on a perfectly level base

Have you considered that it will be highly unlikely that the walls at either end will be plumb? You'll need to make some sort of scribe allowance because it's highly likely that they aren't.

Same really goes for the ceiling. Once you've levelled the plinth it will be possible to check the ceiling. A 10mm or more shadow gap between the top of the unit will make it easier to install if the ceiling isn't bang on level. It can be filled with a scribe strip if required

If you want to work up really tight to the ceiling you'll have to consider building the lower and upper parts of the cabinets as separate entities. That way it will be possible to assemble the lower part onto the plinth before sliding the upper part(s) straight on with a tight fit.

Have you considered how you intend to joint the components together? I'm of the opinion that a structure such as that would lend itself very well to dowels, biscuits or Dominos and one of those would be my preferred approach. Trying to do this one with housings will require a lot of extra calculation and accuracy on those fancy upper parts and be difficult to achieve

If the sides of the units aren't going to be seen I'd omit rebating the backs and simply staple or screw them onto the back edges - similar strength but far less work.

I'd suggest, therefore, that on the main unit you consider building the item as a plinth, one or two lower units and then three separate upper modules which can be joined together in-situ. Any gapping around the outside would be dealt with by a 10 to 20mm scribe strip. Well, that's the sort of approach I'd take.

Because of the complexity of this I'd suggest building the right-hand (seprete) section first as a sort of test piece. That would allow you to refine your approach for building the main shelving unit

My comments are meant in a constructive way so I hope they don't come across as too negative. Withut a doubt this is a big project for a relative beginner to undertake, but I'd emphasise that with appropriate planning it is doable.

If you could post the overall size of the small unit (height, width, depth) to start with I'd be happy to build that up in Sketch-Up for you so that you can visualise it in 3D and then eMail the .skp/.skb files to you

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:25 pm 
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big-all, unfortunately I havent got a table saw so was thinking of buying a circular saw or a plunge saw. I am not quite sure which one would be better to be honest. I have heard that plunge saws are much more precise and smoother in cut and the dust extraction is much better however I dont know if they are as flexible or universal as a circular saw?

Thank you for mentioning the thickness of the saw. Something I wasnt aware before. will have to make allowances for it.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:59 pm 
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You can get software that will work out the best cuts for you and include any allowances you want.
Google searcg here. http://bit.ly/2ALNScd
Various ones there. I can't remember the one I've used. It's several years since.
Looks like you've done a decent job of nesting the cuts anyway.



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:30 pm 
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big-all wrote:
if you have a table saw with enough width capacity its sometimes easier if you find accuracy difficult to cut to around 2mm oversize with a circular or track saw then pass them all through the table saw to make them uniform

Very few DIYers have table saws, and even fewer have table saws big enough to break-down an 8 x 4ft sheet. Same is true for a lot of us tradesmen - I'm lucky enough to have a deWalt DW745 but it isn't really up to the task of breaking down big sheets (just too small, and in any case I don't have the 18 x 6 feet space to work in that shoving an 8 x 4ft sheet across a saw would require). So for breaking down sheets I try to get the merchant to do some of it for me (even a sheet ripped in half lengthways is better than a full sheet) with everything else cut on my trusty Festool plunge saw and a rail, but it is quite possible for a DIYer to make a rail and then use a fairly basic portable (hand) circular saw to do the job - look for series of threads by Somapop a couple of years back for full details. His work shows that accurate breaking-down is achievable on a tight budget (I'll try to post the necessaries). It's worth mentioning that it's always a bit risky to depend on all the edges and corners of sheet material to be perfect - they often get banged-up in transit or handling so it's always worth designing with a 10mm margin on the sheet to allow for this - in big shops with large panel saws the very first cut you do is always the so-called "dust cut" which is designed to give you two straight edges at right angles to work from.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:39 pm 
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J&K your comments and everyone else's here are always welcome. I am very grateful for the support that you guys are giving me without which i wouldnt even dream to start a project like this. :thumbright: :thumbright: :thumbright:

I will have to buy the right tools for the job because I will need to cut everything myself onsite. The work will be carried out in the hallway which is currently empty and measure a good 4.5m x 3m.

In terms of size, I have planned to build the big unit in 5 different parts. The different coloured areas in the last picture show this. Sorry if I wasnt clear before. Each part will then be connected to the surrounding ones via connecting bolts like this:
Image

I hadnt thought about the plinth although I did plan to have a 100mm gap at he bottom like the one that you get at the bottom of kitchen cabinets. I can see your point about the plinth so will add it to the project plans (hopefully with a bit of guidance in terms of design/construction please :oops: ).

Thought about the possibility that the walls may not be plumb so have designed the whole thing allowing a 2cm gap all around the unit (ceiling, back and sides) thinking that that would then compensate for any issues with walls. The whole thing will have a face frame all around it which should cover the gaps. Not sure if i am thinking along the right lines here?

The question about how to joint the components together is one of the main ones for me. Not sure how easy dowels are for a novice like me? Never heard of Dominoes and feel that biscuits might be a bit difficult for me. Any suggestions and guidance in this area (bearing in mind my limited skills/knowledge) would be very welcome.

None of the unit sides would be visible because the whole thing will be fitted in between walls on all sides.

Job and Knock wrote:
I'd suggest, therefore, that on the main unit you consider building the item as a plinth, one or two lower units and then three separate upper modules which can be joined together in-situ. Any gapping around the outside would be dealt with by a 10 to 20mm scribe strip. Well, that's the sort of approach I'd take.


That is exactly what I want to do. Plinth-two lower units-three separate top units for the left hand side main structure and then plinth-one lower unit-one top unit for the smaller right hand side structure.

I will measure everything accurately in a bit and will post all measurements. Thank you very much again for all the support :salute: :salute:


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:29 pm 
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big-all wrote:
if you have a table saw with enough width capacity its sometimes easier if you find accuracy difficult to cut to around 2mm oversize with a circular or track saw then pass them all through the table saw to make them uniform


That's what I do.
Since I have one of these portable saws so I can transport it in the van, and work on my own, managing whole sheets is a challenge.
I made a guide from a couple of lengths of ply and with that clamped in place I use my circular saw to do the initial work to cut the sheets down and once they are a mangeable size I can do the final cuts on the table saw.
With care I can get pretty accurate cuts with the circular though.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:42 pm 
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Right, sorry for delay in posting measurements. It seems like month sof dealing with the builders and the extension has finally got to me and I've got the good old manful :mrgreen: .

The big wall measures 332cm wide x 241cm high and 36cm deep. I have measured everything at the back and front on 3 different points (near ceiling, middle and near floor) and the measurements are exactly the same. The smaller wall measures 106.5cm wide x 241cm high and 32cm deep(at the front). Again, measured at different points and pretty much consistent. The width at the back of this wall is 108cm however I assume this wont matter since the front is narrower and we are going off based of the front width.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:53 pm 
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Now on the subject of the most important tool for this one: the saw. I did a bit of research and took back the recently purchassed Metabo sliding mitre saw and have decided to go for a plunge saw instead with guide rails. From what I have read so far I think I will get a lot more use out of the plunge saw in the long run. Which brings me to the subject of which one to go for. The internet opinion seems to be split between the Bosch GKT55GCE and the Festool TS55REBQ. People seem to think that both of them are good. Apparently the Bosch rail connection system is better however there have been some concerns that it doesnt cut at exactly 90 degrees out of the box (it's 1-1.5 degrees out). The Festool on the other hand is spot on in this area however its rail connection is not as good. Both cut at similar angles and depths although Bosch is somewhere between 3600-6250 rpm and 1400W and the Festool is 2000-5200 and 1200W. Price is pretty much the same (around £430) but the bosch comes with an extra rail. There's also the Makita SP6000J2 which costs £70 less. Which one do I pull the trigger on? :mrgreen:

PS: In case it matters I use a Metabo ASR25L dust extractor.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:01 pm 
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mahoak wrote:
The internet opinion seems to be split between the Bosch GKT55GCE and the Festool TS55REBQ. People seem to think that both of them are good. Apparently the Bosch rail connection system is better however there have been some concerns that it doesnt cut at exactly 90 degrees out of the box (it's 1-1.5 degrees out). The Festool on the other hand is spot on in this area however its rail connection is not as good

The Mafell/Bosch rail connection design is indeed superior to the Festool (not that much, but it is), but as a long-time Festool user I can categorically state that it takes only a few seconds to check or straighten any kink out of the rail joint using a 6ft level. I'd actually be more concerned about building myself a stable, level cutting table - something which has a major influence on cut accuracy, especially with a rail saw. You've got to remember that you are working in effectively a site environment with portable tools, and that the results are never going to compare with the cuts from a £25k Altendorf panel saw - but the end results are pretty good (more than acceptable) from any of the major players' plunge saw/rail systems (i.e Festool, Makita, deWalt, Mafell, Bosch and Virutex). As for Bosch delivering a saw which wasn't right out of the box, just not acceptable at this price level - maybe they need to sort out their Chinese production line (that's where they are supposedly made)? Of the others, lest it makes a difference, the Fes and Mafell are both made in Germany, the Virutex in Spain and the Makita in the UK and much of Europe is assemble in Telford from parts partly sourced from Japan. Don't know about the DW - I've seen examples made in Germany and Mexico. Maybe B-A knows

On the subject of acceptable results I hope that Somapop won't mind me publishing a couple of photos of his work which he did with a far more basic circular saw and a home made cutting guide (work to be rightly proud of I say):

Attachment:
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Above: Dropped ceiling in MDF
Below: False fireplace

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Somapops False Fireplace 001_01.jpg
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I think those results indicate that it's as much the (wo)man as the saw

In terms of the speed and power I don't think there is much in it when you are cutting 18 to 25mm sheet material - TBH they all seem like they could do with a bit more power at times (or maybe I should just slow down a bit?). I've used Makitas quite a bit on a recent job (the firm supplied them, so who was I to refuse?). There are detail differences between the Mak and the Festool which means that I personally prefer the Fes - although there really isn't much in it. It's more a case of the Festool being slightly better finished and there being one or two operational differences, although the Mafell is the same again, only more so. In my area of the trade (interior fit-out) Festools are in the majority, followed by Makitas and then one or two Mafells (these are saws bought by the individual joiners, not firms' tools). With Festool you are buying into a system with a lot of other compatible components (e.g. routers, jigsaws, system workbenches, etc) which the other firms cannot match (although Makita and Virutex guide rail tools are 100% compatible). To date I've not seen anyone with a Bosch of their own (although they have had a bad rap over quality issues with the saw - something which beset the earliest Makitas), and only ever seen one deWalt out there. The point is that any of these saws can produce good work when used properly with the right blade


mahoak wrote:
PS: In case it matters I use a Metabo ASR25L dust extractor.

Quality dust extractor - I have the slightly older ASR2025 which is fundamentally the same (inside). They are badged Starmix vacuums and have an excellent reputation - probably why a lot of manufacturers have abandoned making their own vacs and just badge a Starmix in including Spit, Metabo and Mafell

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:13 am 
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Festool arriving Monday :thumbright: :mrgreen:
Have fancied a Festool for a while and this one gest raving reviews so I thought this was the time to get it. After discounts ended up getting a kit with 2 guide rails, 2 connectors, rail bag, 2 clamps and the sys4 box for £450


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:39 pm 
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In that case what you'll need to do first is build some form of flat cutting table - they don't work at all well unless the material is properly supported. Two trestles and a frame like this can be made up from 3 x 2in CLS :
Attachment:
Breaking Down Bench 7 x 3ft 001_01.JPG
Breaking Down Bench 7 x 3ft 001_01.JPG [ 67.33 KiB | Viewed 117 times ]

although you could equally make it up from odds and ends of 4 x 1in softwood skirting, 150mm rips of plywood, etc

A overall size of approximately 7 x 3ft is good (you don't need the full 8 x 4ft) and a sacrificial sheet of something like 12mm OSB or the like will save the top for many hundreds of cuts

Turning back to the book cases we sort of mentioned plinths a while back, so this is the sort of thing I'd do 9in this case from ex-3x2 PSE, which actually works out at 70 x 44 in real terms:
Attachment:
Book Shelves Plinths 001_01 (2b).JPG
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A couple of things to note: I've allowed 25mm off the wall measurement on 3 sides; this is to make an allowance for the skirting (did you take that into account in your design? It's often overlooked). In the drawing I've allowed for a 30mm set back of the plinths and made additional provision for a scribed plinth fascia which is to be made from 12mm MDF. Something like this:
Attachment:
Book Shelves Plinths 001_01 (2c).JPG
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The reason for using MDF is simply because it paints out so much better than softwood

One thing that is rather obvious is that the depths of the two units are different because of the walls. This will become rather obvious when the full units are built, so the question is whether or not you want that?

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